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Seat Counter

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fursten

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Dec 9, 2006
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Have just been looking at Seatcounter.com, my query is when looking at available seats in various classes, I am confused when looking for example a QF flight from Mel which is also listed as a AA codeshare flight, both show seats available as they are not the same number, my question is are the seats available the total of shown on QF and AA or something else?
Fursten
 

Kiwi Flyer

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fursten said:
Have just been looking at Seatcounter.com, my query is when looking at available seats in various classes, I am confused when looking for example a QF flight from Mel which is also listed as a AA codeshare flight, both show seats available as they are not the same number, my question is are the seats available the total of shown on QF and AA or something else?
Fursten
Something else. Codeshares often have different availability as it is unlikely the numbers offered in each booking class matches (even ignoring different airlines using different booking classes) and also unlikely the rate of sale of each booking class matches.

As I understand it, codeshare airlines often rebalance inventory. Eg if AA isn't selling much on QF operated flight and QF is then QF may take back some of AA's inventory (presumably in accordance with their codeshare agreements).
 

fursten

Junior Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2006
Messages
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Thanks
Then another question then, if what you say is correct, when it comes to upgrades who has what?
Do AA and QF then cooperate on which of its members get upgrades or is it only QF if it is their metal?
I am asking as it appears sometimes on International flights that Business may not be full yet no upgrades given even if requested with points.
Fursten
 

Dave Noble

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Oct 10, 2005
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fursten said:
Thanks
Then another question then, if what you say is correct, when it comes to upgrades who has what?
Do AA and QF then cooperate on which of its members get upgrades or is it only QF if it is their metal?
I am asking as it appears sometimes on International flights that Business may not be full yet no upgrades given even if requested with points.
Fursten
AA miles can be only used to upgrade flights which are both operated by and marketed by AA
QF miles can be only used to upgrade flights which are both operated by and marketed by QF

Dave
 

Kiwi Flyer

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And op-ups probably more likely on QF code than on AA code, but if a particular seat is needed in a hurry anyone can get an op-up.
 

fursten

Junior Member
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Dec 9, 2006
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49
Dave
I understand that, but the question is on codeshare if AA have an allocation of seats and I assume upgrade seats, if they do not use them do QF take them back and then allocate?If yes then at what point does it happen? Day before 1 hour?
Fursten
 

Kiwi Flyer

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fursten said:
Dave
I understand that, but the question is on codeshare if AA have an allocation of seats and I assume upgrade seats, if they do not use them do QF take them back and then allocate?If yes then at what point does it happen? Day before 1 hour?
Fursten
No AA does not have upgrades allocated. AA cannot upgrade anyone on a QF operated flight.
 

Dave Noble

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fursten said:
Dave
I understand that, but the question is on codeshare if AA have an allocation of seats and I assume upgrade seats, if they do not use them do QF take them back and then allocate?If yes then at what point does it happen? Day before 1 hour?
Fursten
As I said

AA points can ONLY be used to upgrade flights which are both operated by and marketed by American Airlines. An AA codeshare on a QF flight does not meet that criteria

Dave
 

NM

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Sometimes codeshare partners share the same bucket of seats and its a matter of both can sell until there are no seats left. Under this model, if there was say 10 business class seats still available on the flight, one codeshare partner (say the operating airline) may be willing to sell all 10 as J and 5 of them a D tickets. At the same time the non-operating partner may sold close to its target sales in business class and may only offering 4 J seats for sale and no more D seats. However, if the operating airline managed to sell 7 of the remaining seats, the non-operating airline will show a reduced available inventory of 3 seats.

Sometimes the codeshare partners have their own individual allocations of seats, and one airline may be sold out while the other still have seats available. In this case, one airline could be sold out in all its business class buckets while the other has seats remaining for sale. It depends on what agreement is in place between the codesharing airlines.

I believe the QF/AA/BA codeshares on the QF-operated trans-Pacific flights follow the first model, while the QF/LA codeshares operated by LA follow the second model.

One way to get an indication as to which model may be used is to look at the available seat maps for each of the codeshare partners. If both show the full seat map for the operating aircraft type, then it is most likely the first model that is in use. If the seat maps show different seats and the sum of the codeshare operators seat maps adds up to a complete map, then that indicates the second model is in use. These seat maps can look strange, while either whole rows or blocks of rows missing from each airline's maps, or one airline showing say ABC DEF and the other airline showing HJK on the same row. In this case they do not even show the other airline's allocation of seats as either being available or allocated - they are just not even included in the seat map. Have a look at the LA and QF codeshares to SCL for an example of these strange looking seat maps.

So the answer to the original question is that it depends on the codeshare agreement between the two (or more) airlines. And the agreements vary and are not public information.

Note that Qantas only allocates waitlisted upgrades within the last 24 hours or so of the flight. So it does not matter what the availability is showing further out than 24 hours. No upgrades are cleared before that time. Also note that they rarely allocate all unsold business class seats for upgrades. They like to keep some available for last minute changes such as for passengers who may have missed a connection to a different flight and need to be slotted onto that flight as a displaced passenger. If they filled all available business class seats with waitlisted upgrades 24 hours before departure, then they would not have the operational flexibility to cope with missed connections etc.
 

Kiwi Flyer

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Joined
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NM said:
Sometimes codeshare partners share the same bucket of seats and its a matter of both can sell until there are no seats left. Under this model, if there was say 10 business class seats still available on the flight, one codeshare partner (say the operating airline) may be willing to sell all 10 as J and 5 of them a D tickets. At the same time the non-operating partner may sold close to its target sales in business class and may only offering 4 J seats for sale and no more D seats. However, if the operating airline managed to sell 7 of the remaining seats, the non-operating airline will show a reduced available inventory of 3 seats.

Sometimes the codeshare partners have their own individual allocations of seats, and one airline may be sold out while the other still have seats available. In this case, one airline could be sold out in all its business class buckets while the other has seats remaining for sale. It depends on what agreement is in place between the codesharing airlines.

I believe the QF/AA/BA codeshares on the QF-operated trans-Pacific flights follow the first model, while the QF/LA codeshares operated by LA follow the second model.

One way to get an indication as to which model may be used is to look at the available seat maps for each of the codeshare partners. If both show the full seat map for the operating aircraft type, then it is most likely the first model that is in use. If the seat maps show different seats and the sum of the codeshare operators seat maps adds up to a complete map, then that indicates the second model is in use. These seat maps can look strange, while either whole rows or blocks of rows missing from each airline's maps, or one airline showing say ABC DEF and the other airline showing HJK on the same row. In this case they do not even show the other airline's allocation of seats as either being available or allocated - they are just not even included in the seat map. Have a look at the LA and QF codeshares to SCL for an example of these strange looking seat maps.

So the answer to the original question is that it depends on the codeshare agreement between the two (or more) airlines. And the agreements vary and are not public information.

Note that Qantas only allocates waitlisted upgrades within the last 24 hours or so of the flight. So it does not matter what the availability is showing further out than 24 hours. No upgrades are cleared before that time. Also note that they rarely allocate all unsold business class seats for upgrades. They like to keep some available for last minute changes such as for passengers who may have missed a connection to a different flight and need to be slotted onto that flight as a displaced passenger. If they filled all available business class seats with waitlisted upgrades 24 hours before departure, then they would not have the operational flexibility to cope with missed connections etc.
I have also seen cases where on the seat map the codeshare seats look the same as allocated seats until close to departure when the operating airline works out which seats under the codeshare are actually in use and which can be released.

There is no standard arrangement and thus no way to tell that applies to all codeshares.
 

NM

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Kiwi Flyer said:
There is no standard arrangement and thus no way to tell that applies to all codeshares.
Indeed that was the point I was trying to make - albeit in my usual confused and convoluted manner :p .
 
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