Refund after 'horror' flight next to obese woman

[samh004]

Comedian Lavelle Crawford has some interesting points to raise on that subject during one of his comedy appearances from 1:00 to 3:05mins:

YouTube - Lavell Crawford - Laffapalooza 1

Bloody hell!

He’s right though, he wouldn’t fit in an aircraft toilet, no matter how many seats he bought!

 

[DrJ]

Once sat opposite an extremely obese woman in the aisle seat when I was in the window on a DJ flight CNS-BNE, there was fortunately no one in the middle. Not sure if this was deliberate, kudos to DJ if it was!

I have yet to experience the horror situation such a person next to me in whY (though am about to get on a fully booked PER-BNE flight so this ma yet change!) - may reconsider stumping up for J more often if it ever happens!

Seriously though, you get charged $$ if your checked luggage is a couple of kg over the meager allowance, yet not compelled to buy 2 seats if your self is 100kg+ over an average person's weight!

 

[Mrmaxwell]

Seriously though, you get charged $$ if your checked luggage is a couple of kg over the meager allowance, yet not compelled to buy 2 seats if your self is 100kg+ over!

This is the issue in essence...

As airlines do not include personal weight restrictions in any of their T&Cs when purchasing a seat then an obese person has the right to purchase a seat and let the airline deal with the 'mess' at check in.

If I were obese and flying I would ask for the seat next to me to be kept vacant, or be placed on another flight if possible...but that is me.

So the question is - what is stopping airlines from placing weight restrictions on PAX? Polictical correctness? Discrimination?

 

[Sprucegoose]

I believe an routine ambulance can only transport people of a certain weight, why should an airline be any different?

Bungy jumping 100kg?

Normal office chairs are rated to 120kg?

Why chastise an airline for going beyond certain limits?

There must be limits to protect others from an OHS perspective regardless of the commercial imperative!

 

[drron]

Once sat opposite an extremely obese woman in the aisle seat when I was in the window on a DJ flight CNS-BNE, there was fortunately no one in the middle. Not sure if this was deliberate, kudos to DJ if it was!

I have yet to experience the horror situation such a person next to me in whY (though am about to get on a fully booked PER-BNE flight so this ma yet change!) - may reconsider stumping up for J more often if it ever happens!

Seriously though, you get charged $$ if your checked luggage is a couple of kg over the meager allowance, yet not compelled to buy 2 seats if your self is 100kg+ over!

I can assure you from personal experience that being over 100kg does not preclude you from being able to fit in a Dash8 seat without intruding in to your neighbour's space.And this article was about a Dash8.

I believe an routine ambulance can only transport people of a certain weight, why should an airline be any different?

Bungy jumping 100kg?

Normal office chairs are rated to 120kg?

Why chastise an airline for going beyond certain limits?

There must be limits to protect others from an OHS perspective regardless of the commercial imperative!

Again a normal ambulance the weight limit would be well above 100kg-not sure of the actual amoiunt.There are however now in Queensland ambulances that can transport the morbidly obese.However you bring up a good point-a lot of medical equipment does have weight limits.For example most treadmills have a weight limit of 130kg as do a lot of Xray and Nuclear medicine tables.There are however now available tables designed for greater weights-eg for surgery and angiography.So it must be remembered that not only do the morbidly obese have a much higher incidence of things such as heartr disease it can be much more difficult to diagnose or treat hence likely to have a higher mortality rate as well.
As to planes there are weight limits on Air Ambulances-though really more a size limit.Smaller planes= smaller doors and there are people who just dont fit.I was associated with such a case in regional QLD.It was before the days of higher weight limit ambulances.The fellow was 210kg but vertically challenged.Although his heart disease could be investigated in Brisbane we could not get him there by road or air ambulance.Fortunately the Army were conducting an exercise nearby so he was transported in a military ambulance on a tank transporter.The fellow complained to the press about his embarrassment!
But on commercial airliners a much harder situation.There are anti discrimination laws that must be considered-as has been seen in Canada.And weight as I have alluded to is not an accurate guide as to whether you fit in a seat.A 130kg fellow of 190cm may well fit in a Y seat(though leg room may be a problem).If he was only 145cm it is likely he would intrude on neighbours space.Abdominal girth may be a better guide.
And as to the silly I only weigh so much so should be entitled to extra baggage-so you would be willing if less than say 150cm tall to be not allowed any carryons because you could not reach the overhead bins?

 

[UP4014]

But anyway basically the staff member checking the person in asked them to wait for a moment as they had to check something with their supervisor. They called the supervisor and the obese person was taken to the side (so as not to embarrass them I'm guessing) and I overheard bits and pieces of the conversation - was all around passenger comfort, safety etc and the flight they were booked on was full. The obese person got a bit red and flustered, but to be honest I think they were a bit hot from walking up through the terminal anyway so didn't seem too distressed. As I finished I saw them being rebooked onto another flight.... unsure if they were forced to pay etc though.

Thought this was a pretty decent approach - taking them away from normal check in.

That's good, it's really the only way this should be handled, refer to a supervisor and take them aside.

Matt

 

[jsd]

It looks like Southwest have their policy for a P.O.S pretty well worked out:

Guidelines for Customers of Size

Customers who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel. The armrest is considered to be the definitive boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width. The purchase of additional seats serves as a notification of a special seating need and allows us to process a refund of the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn't oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe and comfortable seating.


Is the policy unique or new to Southwest Airlines?

No. Other carriers have similar policies, but to the best of our knowledge, no other carrier offers a refund after travel. We've followed this policy for 29 of our 38 years of operation. We became more vigilant regarding the additional purchase when we began seeing an increase in the number of valid complaints from passengers who traveled without full access to their seat because a large Customer infringed upon the adjacent seating space.

Why ask large Customers to purchase additional seating? We could no longer ignore complaints from Customers who traveled without full access to their seat due to encroachment by a large seatmate whose body extended into the neighboring seat. These Customers had uncomfortable (and sometimes painful) travel experiences, and it is our responsibility to seek resolution to prevent this problem.

What is the cost of the additional seating? If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.

What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size? The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width. Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who encroach upon any portion of the adjacent seat should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel.

How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase? As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the additional seat purchase after travel. A Refund Advice Slip, a guide for conveniently requesting refunds (via telephone or letter), is provided to the Customer of size at checkin. And, if it appears a flight will oversell, the option to purchase an extra seat and travel on a less full flight is available.

Are there other reasons to purchase additional seating? Yes. Customers wishing to secure an item in an aircraft seat such as a musical item, a child restraint device for an infant, etc. must purchase an additional ticket. However, these Customers have other "options" such as holding an infant under the age of two as a lap child or placing the instrument in an onboard storage space or in the cargo hold. We are sensitive to the fact that a large Customer has no option regarding seating space. For that reason, we offer a refund of the additional seat purchased (by a Customer of size) as long as the flight does not oversell.

Won't this be embarrassing to the large Customer and the Employee? It's tough to speak privately in an airport setting, and because a discussion about size is sensitive, we've cautioned our Employees to use discretion. Yes, it's difficult to deliver or receive a sensitive message, and to alleviate confusion, we encourage Customers with unique seating needs to proactively purchase additional seating (again, this is to notify us of the unique need). We ask this to accommodate our Customers in comfort and avoid embarrassing conversations. Ultimately, it is the Customer's responsibility to communicate with us upfront (at the time of booking) about his/her seating needs so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard.

Do I have to purchase two seats if I fit in one, but use a seatbelt extension? Our policy does not focus on weight, and the seatbelt extension is not the determining factor. We use the ability to lower the armrests as the gauge, as the armrests are truly the definitive boundary between each seat.

Are all overweight people subject to the policy? Many American's are "overweight" or "clinically obese." A number of overweight or obese people occupy only one seat. In fact, many Customers may use a seatbelt extension but occupy only one seat, and these Customers would not be asked to reserve a second seat.

Why not make your seats wider or add a few wide seats on your aircraft? Our ongoing goal is to operate a low-fare, low cost airline, and the costs of reconfiguring our fleet would be staggering and would ultimately reflect in the form of higher fares for our Customers. Purchasing two seats on Southwest Airlines is significantly less expensive than purchasing one first class seat on another airline.

If a flight is "open," why are you charging for an additional seat? A Customer has no way of knowing at the time of booking if his/her flights will be full. The inconsistency of charging for the extra seat on one occasion and not others leaves the Customer not knowing what to expect and not having a full understanding of our policy. Thus, we require the additional purchase despite booking levels.

Why can't two large Customers share their second seat? Open seating cannot guarantee that there will be an entire row open for two Customers to sit together and share the middle seat on each leg of the trip.

Can a large Customer sit with a family member or a small person who doesn't take a full seat? No. Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or personal relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member whose movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if encroached on by a large seatmate.

Isn't this policy just another way to increase your revenue? No. We are not "making money" from this policy. In addition to giving the Customer a refund for the second seat, we are absorbing the administrative costs (staffing and processing) of issuing the refund. 98% of extra seat purchases qualify for a refund, as a refund request is declined only in the event of an oversale that causes us to deny transportation to a confirmed Customer (to whom we must issue denied boarding compensation).

If a Customer has broad shoulders, will he/she have to buy a second seat? If a Customer cannot lower the armrests, the additional purchase is necessary. Simply having broad shoulders would not necessarily prevent another Customer from occupying the adjoining seat. The upper body can be adjusted, but the portion of the body in the actual seating and armrest area doesn't have this flexibility.

Why isn't this information referenced on reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by Reservations Agents? We estimate that the Extra Seat policy affects far less than half a percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a Customer with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won't know of an unusual need unless the Customer tells us.

Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air Carrier Access Act? Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from the Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is instead covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR part 382, et seq. The air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from the scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) "Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased."

Can I be preapproved as needing only one seat? Because size can fluctuate, we are unable to give blanket authorization.

Can you ensure no one takes the seat beside me if I've purchased a second seat? The Customer who has purchased two seats must be an active participant in preserving his/her additional seat. We encourage Customers of size to preboard to locate adequate seating, placing the Reserved Seat Document in the adjacent seat. Our Ground Operations and Inflight Employees communicate about special needs Customers, and if a Customer of size needs seating assistance, he/she should ask an Employee for help.

I'm pregnant; will I have to purchase two seats? A woman who is pregnant does not occupy two seats; she will not have to purchase two seats, if she can lower the armrests.

Can I check in using a self-service kiosk or online checkin? Because a Customer of size has special seating needs (he/she needs specific boarding/seating documents and is encouraged to preboard), these Customers are required to check in with a Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter or at the gate. A Skycap can assist a Customer of size with baggage and provide an escort to the ticket counter. If a Customer of size wishes to bypass the ticket counter, he/she may print a Security Document online for access through the security checkpoint and then check in at the gate. At checkin, a Customer of size will receive a boarding pass, Reserved Seat Document, Refund Advice Slip, and preboarding direction.

Isn't this policy discriminatory toward large Customers? Southwest Airlines does not condone discrimination in any form. We have Employees and Customers of all races, ethnicity, religions, shapes, and sizes. Our Mission and our responsibility per our Contract of Carriage is to provide safe and comfortable air transportation for each and every Customer. This policy has been upheld in court and is supported by the Department of Transportation's stance that the purchase of a single ticket offers the use of a single seat.

Now why can't Australian carriers implement a policy similar to this? :shock: Seems like it should have been done a long long time ago.

Josh

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I have actually seen DJ check in staff deal with an obese passenger at check in. I must say they did it pretty well, I mean as well as you could expect in a difficult situation. Not to be generalistic / mean but the demographic that fly DJ IMHO would mean they probably get more of these situations than QF......

But anyway basically the staff member checking the person in asked them to wait for a moment as they had to check something with their supervisor. They called the supervisor and the obese person was taken to the side (so as not to embarrass them I'm guessing) and I overheard bits and pieces of the conversation - was all around passenger comfort, safety etc and the flight they were booked on was full. The obese person got a bit red and flustered, but to be honest I think they were a bit hot from walking up through the terminal anyway so didn't seem too distressed. As I finished I saw them being rebooked onto another flight.... unsure if they were forced to pay etc though.

Thought this was a pretty decent approach - taking them away from normal check in.

It just makes me wonder whether this person had in fact purchased a 'Blue Zone' fare which seats pax in the overwing exit and staff were subtlely trying to say that the pax wasn't suitable for the exit row. Even still it sounded like the ground staff acted professionally and handled the situation well.

As it's actually a CASA regulation that no person may sit in an emergency exit row if they require an entension seatbelt, sometimes it's easier to explain to the pax that the airline must follow CASA requirements at all times.

It really annoys me that airlines incorrectly market the emergency exit row as "extra legroom seats" in their grab for cash, :evil: when first and foremost it is an emergency exit row and all pax seated here should be be willing and able to assist in the event of emergency. The legroom is secondary. :!: