QFF Membership Year definition? plus appalling QFF call centre service

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markm1111

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Hi. I struggled to find a thread on a similar vein, andit is coming from a different angle to most.

I have an issue with how Qantas implements its definition of a membership yearfor status credit purposes. It is important to me as I will be flying a lotthis year (for me), and depending on the outcome, I could full just short of myfirst Gold status. I first joined QFF and Qantas Club in 1995 and have been avery loyal customer ever since, for better or worse, and at a Silver level forI think at least the last 10 years.

At 6.10pm on 30 June I flew business JFK-LAX-SYD. On 3 July I was credited with140 status credits but noted, per my activity statement, these creditswouldn't count towards my current membership year. I was expecting these to bein the current membership year, so I checked the QFF T&Cs for definitionsand found the following:

'Anniversary Month' is the month during which a Memberjoined Qantas Frequent Flyer, irrespective of the year

'Membership Year' commences on the first day of themonth following a Member's Anniversary Month and concludes on the last day ofthe Member's Anniversary Month the following year

My reading of this, which I believe a reasonable person would follow, is thatthe membership month and year is based around not only when a memberjoined, but where. If I joined on the first of the month in Sydney, it wouldhave been the last day of the previous month in New York (at least for 10 to 12hours), hence they could be two different membership months, which doesn't makesense. Therefore, the month must be defined by the where and the when.

The above is important because my 6.10pm 30 June flight out of JFK was actually4.10am Sydney time 1 July, in my new membership year. Therefore the 140 statuscredits should count in my current year.

I rang the QFF call centre about this. The woman I spoke to gave me the linethat they allocate points on the basis of the date in the departure city. Iexplained that I understood that is how the rules are applied, but I disagreedwith this approach and believed they should be allocated on the basis of the timein the QFF application location, based on their own definitions. We went around incircles for quite a few minutes while she told me what they did, and I told herwhat they should do. Eventually after becoming very frustrated (but neverswearing or threatening) I asked several times, politely but firmly, tospeak to a manager or someone more senior. She told me nobody was around, thatI would just get the same answer anyway, and after a couple more minutes ofgoing around in circles simply hung up on me. So much for client service! Iknow she couldn't deal with it, but it should have been escalated.

So my question is, has anyone else come across this issue? Did you resolve itsatisfactorily? Do you think I have a reasonable position?

Thanks in advance
 
Hi markm1111 Qantas has been very consistent on this point. SCs have always been credited to your account on the actual date you flew.

As for having a different date dependent upon where your membership commenced then the complexities would be incredible. Qantas is an Australian company and rightly decrees that membership begins and ends according to Australian time.

Many of us here are also members of AA and our expiry dates are based on USA times (can't remember the actual state but it is mentioned).

Basically I don't think you're being reasonable in this instance.
 
Thanks HVR for your comment, but I think you are actually agreeing with me. I want my membership year, and hence allocation of status credits, to be based on Australian time. Qantas are trying to use US time. They are actually NOT decreeing that membership begins and ends on Australian time, but rather whatever it says on your boarding pass.

I agree it would be too difficult to do based on joining time, I was using that to make a point. I just think as an Australian based airline, with a majority Australian based membership, there tests should be based on Australian time just as AA is based on US time. In this case they are not.
 
Hi and welcome.

I tend to agree with HVR, Qf has always had the same stance. Just one of those things which this time it doesn't suit you. When ringing a call centre always ask for the pwersons name first, just a tip.

Matt
 
I have to agree with Hvr.

You state that you agree with the rules, but no the implementation. (Cake and eat it too?)

The complexities are obvious. And you simply, missed by several hours. Sorry to say, I do feel the pain. But I think even you acknowledge QF is correct in thier stance.
 
Unfortunately you are out of luck. Status Credits post based on the departure date at the origin. You flew on June 30 so the flight posts as June 30 (even when it credits in July). Thats just how it works and is unfortunate, but is the case for every QFF member.
 
Hi markm1111 Qantas has been very consistent on this point. SCs have always been credited to your account on the actual date you flew.

As for having a different date dependent upon where your membership commenced then the complexities would be incredible. Qantas is an Australian company and rightly decrees that membership begins and ends according to Australian time.

Many of us here are also members of AA and our expiry dates are based on USA times (can't remember the actual state but it is mentioned).

Basically I don't think you're being reasonable in this instance.

Correction, status credits are given on the scheduled departure date, not the actual day you fly. If the flight is delayed for some reason to the next day the SC are still given for the date of scheduled departure.

As an aside there used to be some inconsistency in the Terms and Conditions related to the arrival date, but ISTR they fixed that some time ago.
 
Thanks Matt. Been a member for a while, and a reader for even longer, just never had much to add or question to ask of what is a very valuable forum.

Point taken on asking for the name, I think she did tell me, but I forgot to write it down.

Consistency is fine, I just disagree with the interpretation. I'm sure this isn't that common an issue either. In the past I have actually changed my travel dates and/or flights so that I didn't encounter this issue. This time I just thought I had it right, only to find out later Qantas has a different view.

I have to agree with Hvr.

You state that you agree with the rules, but no the implementation. (Cake and eat it too?)

The complexities are obvious. And you simply, missed by several hours. Sorry to say, I do feel the pain. But I think even you acknowledge QF is correct in thier stance.

Thanks Boca68. I do agree with the rules. I'm not disagreeing with their implementation, rather their interpretation. My 15/16 membership year has been calculated by Qantas as being 367 days long (it's a leap year). That's more than a year in anyone's books. I'm just asking for them to be consistent with the definitions in their own T&Cs.

Thanks for the sympathy though, by their definition I missed by less than 6 hours....
 
Sorry but you flew on 30JUN so were credited for 30JUN.

You can make this argument the other way (eg: "fly SYD-LAX on 30JUN, then LAX-DFW-JFK on 30JUN LA time, but in oz it's now 01JUL, so why dont I get those credits for the new membership year"?

every airline on earth with loyalty programs that I have ever known of goes on flight date, local to wherever it left from not on a universal time.

I understand the argument, but you're very much out of luck and won't win any arguments. I'm sorry if those 140 SC let you short of Gold in your new membership year, but it's entirely consistent based on departure date.

it's also never been based on when the SC's credit to one's account. It has ALWAYS related to the flight date.

You might have had an argument if you were booked to fly on 30JUN and the flight was cancelled or changed and you wound up flying on 01JUL and wanted the credits to apply to the previous year (one could claim Original Route Credit-ORC)

my 2 cents worth.

Thanks Boca68. I do agree with the rules. I'm not disagreeing with their implementation, rather their interpretation. My 15/16 membership year has been calculated by Qantas as being 367 days long (it's a leap year). That's more than a year in anyone's books. I'm just asking for them to be consistent with the definitions in their own T&Cs.

Thanks for the sympathy though, by their definition I missed by less than 6 hours....

So what you're saying is QF actually gave you a day extra (due to the leap year) in the membership year. This is a (small) bonus for many flyers but just a function of the calendar every 4 years. I don't really see an issue with interpretation - it's more that you would prefer they interpret/implement it in a manner that suits your particular situation (which i totally understand)

sorry I'm not trying to sound rude.
 
Thanks Boca68. I do agree with the rules. I'm not disagreeing with their implementation, rather their interpretation. My 15/16 membership year has been calculated by Qantas as being 367 days long (it's a leap year). That's more than a year in anyone's books. I'm just asking for them to be consistent with the definitions in their own T&Cs.

Thanks for the sympathy though, by their definition I missed by less than 6 hours....

The problem is this is about the date used to determine crediting of flights. Nothing to do with membership year definition. The leap year thing makes absolutely no difference to the membership year when it adds a dy. Membership year is based on the name of the month - not the number of days (brit 365 or 367).

Your membership year is between 2 fixed months, Qantas use the schedule date of departure (which is always local time) to determine which month the flight belongs in. It is unambiguous.

It is also bad for some situations, but things are clear.
 
No worries RichardMel, I'm not offended. I'm sure for may people the interpretation works the other way, in that they manage to squeak over tier by virtue of the same application. I was just hoping that maybe somebody had a win arguing this type of thing, but doesn't appear to be so. I might try my luck by another avenue.

It just irks me as I have come close to Gold a couple of time, being around the 600 SC mark, but this is the first year I stand a real chance of getting over 700. Once I am in Gold, I stand half a chance of keeping it for at least the next couple of years based on my work and our holiday habits. That last 100 SC has just proved elusive.
 
You might have had an argument if you were booked to fly on 30JUN and the flight was cancelled or changed and you wound up flying on 01JUL and wanted the credits to apply to the previous year (one could claim Original Route Credit-ORC)

my 2 cents worth.

If the flight is changed then the credit would still happen for the scheduled date of departure. Cancelled maybe an argument could be made, but it would depend on ORC, which then puts you back to scheduled date of departure.

No worries RichardMel, I'm not offended. I'm sure for may people the interpretation works the other way, in that they manage to squeak over tier by virtue of the same application. I was just hoping that maybe somebody had a win arguing this type of thing, but doesn't appear to be so. I might try my luck by another avenue.

The only possible argument when I had this problem, was that the credit for the flight doesn't exist (you're not eligible for the points) until the flight lands - as per the T&Cs. So my argument was that I can't be awarded SC/points before I'm eligible to get them. But I didn't win the argument, and ISTR they removed that from the T&Cs within a year or so of me making the argument.
 
The problem is this is about the date used to determine crediting of flights. Nothing to do with membership year definition. The leap year thing makes absolutely no difference to the membership year when it adds a dy. Membership year is based on the name of the month - not the number of days (brit 365 or 367).

Your membership year is between 2 fixed months, Qantas use the schedule date of departure (which is always local time) to determine which month the flight belongs in. It is unambiguous.

It is also bad for some situations, but things are clear.

I'm sorry medhead, but that is where I disagree. It is not unambiguous. It defines Membership Year and Anniversary Month. Last time I looked June had 30 days, not 31. I have been "gifted" a 31 day June for 2016 according to Qantas. It is exactly this ambiguity I am challenging.

I completely understand this is how it has always been applied, I'm just questioning the validity of it based on their own T&Cs. Nowhere that I can find do they define allocation of SC based on departure date. They only happen to apply it that way. I am more than happy to give up if you can show me where I have missed this definition or condition. I'm sure there will be some catch all term or condition which says they can do whatever they like, but it would be nice for a change for that to work in the customers favour rather than Qantas
 
I'm sorry medhead, but that is where I disagree. It is not unambiguous. It defines Membership Year and Anniversary Month. Last time I looked June had 30 days, not 31. I have been "gifted" a 31 day June for 2016 according to Qantas. It is exactly this ambiguity I am challenging.

I completely understand this is how it has always been applied, I'm just questioning the validity of it based on their own T&Cs. Nowhere that I can find do they define allocation of SC based on departure date. They only happen to apply it that way. I am more than happy to give up if you can show me where I have missed this definition or condition. I'm sure there will be some catch all term or condition which says they can do whatever they like, but it would be nice for a change for that to work in the customers favour rather than Qantas

No you got a 29 February. Even if you got a 31 June. It is still the last day of your "'Anniversary Month' is the month during which a Memberjoined Qantas Frequent Flyer, irrespective of the year".

Your new member year starts on 1 July, even if there were 4 million days in June your member year will not start until 1 July. It is based on the months, not the days.
 
.... but it would be nice for a change for that to work in the customers favour rather than Qantas....

But it DOES work equally in customers favour. For example, if you needed the credits for last years membership to get to gold rather than this year, that date difference would have worked in your favour!!
 
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I'm sorry medhead, but that is where I disagree. It is not unambiguous. It defines Membership Year and Anniversary Month. Last time I looked June had 30 days, not 31. I have been "gifted" a 31 day June for 2016 according to Qantas. It is exactly this ambiguity I am challenging.

This might hold some water if you could be in 2 timezones at once (eg: US EDT and AU EST) but each flight sector has a specific date attached to it. That is how they credit. I think it's a semantic issue based on a technicality of timezones. June has 30 days on the US East Coast same as it does in Sydney, Mombassa or iN GMT (which if any program was to base their dates and flight crediting on, it should be GMT or even "Zulu" time as all avaiation-eg pilots, dispatchers etc use anyway..) but to the general public it would be as confusing as heck. What if you're in PER on 30JUN and you're on the redeye, which in SYD (QF's home base) is actually 01JUL and your flight is credit as such? That would be confusing then "I didn't fly on that date!"). This can be twisted to suit many situations. The thing is that QF credit flights on their departure dates/times local time and always will. As such june never has 31 days.

I'd also note what about the case of a flight that's supposed to depart at 2330 but gets delayed and does not fly till 0100 the next day - would you also argue that it should credit to that day it actually took off? In that case it would be a mess specially if the 2330 flight for that next day runs on time, then in theory there could be *2* flights running around on the same date with the same number etc.. that way lies madness.Wh

en one looks up a flight status for airline X - you do it on the local time/date of departure.. I mean if I have a friend saying they're on QF94 on June 30th I don't go and look up QF94 on July 1st even though in Sydney that's the date it's actually flying on.

the implementation and interpretation are consistent in my book with the notion of a flight having a specific departure date that is local to the origin of that flight.
 
Hi markm1111, I think it's rather poor that QF hung up on you and didn't allow you to speak to a supervisor, I think that QF have interpreted your situation as they have set the rules and even a supervisor would not have changed that.
 
This might hold some water if you could be in 2 timezones at once (eg: US EDT and AU EST) but each flight sector has a specific date attached to it. That is how they credit. I think it's a semantic issue based on a technicality of timezones. June has 30 days on the US East Coast same as it does in Sydney, Mombassa or iN GMT (which if any program was to base their dates and flight crediting on, it should be GMT or even "Zulu" time as all avaiation-eg pilots, dispatchers etc use anyway..) but to the general public it would be as confusing as heck. What if you're in PER on 30JUN and you're on the redeye, which in SYD (QF's home base) is actually 01JUL and your flight is credit as such? That would be confusing then "I didn't fly on that date!"). This can be twisted to suit many situations. The thing is that QF credit flights on their departure dates/times local time and always will. As such june never has 31 days.

I'd also note what about the case of a flight that's supposed to depart at 2330 but gets delayed and does not fly till 0100 the next day - would you also argue that it should credit to that day it actually took off? In that case it would be a mess specially if the 2330 flight for that next day runs on time, then in theory there could be *2* flights running around on the same date with the same number etc.. that way lies madness.Wh

en one looks up a flight status for airline X - you do it on the local time/date of departure.. I mean if I have a friend saying they're on QF94 on June 30th I don't go and look up QF94 on July 1st even though in Sydney that's the date it's actually flying on.

the implementation and interpretation are consistent in my book with the notion of a flight having a specific departure date that is local to the origin of that flight.

This is why the member year is determined by the name of the month - not the number of days in the month, or the number of the day in the month. It could be the 40th of June and it would still be June and the new member year would still not start.

The delay scenario is exactly the issue I experienced. That's when I learned that the schedule date of departure is how they determine the month that the flight slots into for crediting purposes.

there are 2 timelines - the fixed member year based on name of month only, and the flight departure timeline. It's all about where the second timeline fits with the first timeline.


Hi markm1111, I think it's rather poor that QF hung up on you and didn't allow you to speak to a supervisor, I think that QF have interpreted your situation as they have set the rules and even a supervisor would not have changed that.

I missed that, if they hung up on the OP it is appalling.
 
Hi markm1111, I think it's rather poor that QF hung up on you and didn't allow you to speak to a supervisor, I think that QF have interpreted your situation as they have set the rules and even a supervisor would not have changed that.
this I think is more the issue. Rules are rules and are going to sometimes be in our favour, sometimes not. However there should never be any reason to be rude to a customer, no matter how difficult. Escalate it, let the supervisor say the same thing and the customer goes away still unhappy, but at least feel they were heard. Put the phone down and you have a very disgruntled customer forever....
 
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