QF121 TODAY SAT 7 August

[MelUser]

I feel for the passengers on this plane.

It was due to fly from SYD to Queenstown.

It has flown from SYD to Christchurch, Dunedin, back to Christchurch and then on to Auckland. Passengers still left on the plane have been put up in hotels and will continue tomorrow morning at 9am on a chartered plane from Auckland to the original destination Queenstown.

In flight catering ran out after the first sector - ie SYD - Christchuch so by the time the plane got to Dunedin, many passengers simply got off and into rental cars at their own cost to drive to Queenstown.

Problem was that Qantas refused to unload baggage so they are without their skis boots and anything else that they checked in as luggage.

Apparently this is not due to aircraft failure but cautious pilots who don't like to land when visibility is lower than usual. Queenstown is a low tech airport without the runway guidance systems which assist aircraft to land.

 

[samh004]

Queenstown doesn’t have RADAR or runway lights, and the latest a plane can leave is half-an-hour before dusk or the airline will be fined, as happened recently when a Pacific Blue plane took off too late and the pilots were stood down.

Interesting story if it was about today, because all day I could hear (and see) DJ and ANZ planes coming and going… so why QF couldn’t land really surprises me, because everyone else was, and the weather wasn’t really that bad, just low cloud and a cold front. Wasn’t even snowing in town!

Oh and they wouldn’t need their skis and boots as tomorrow is going to be the same weather… so I hope my plane lands and I manage to board and leave too!

 

[anat0l]

Why did it have to make so many twists and turns before deciding on Auckland?

If it's lack of ground handling facilities, well I find that hard to believe. OK QF won't have one handy in anywhere except WLG and AKL (I don't know if there are any QF facilities left in CHC), but still.... Not to mention that QF seemed to allow pax to disembark and leave in DUD (albeit without their checked baggage, which has to be an utmost violation of security protocols).

Even then, surely just like the late domestic Jetconnect, wouldn't QF have a backup plan if it was 'unsafe' to land in ZQN? (Jetconnect usually diverted to IVC and bussed to ZQN, or diverted to CHC and stopped there, possibly rescheduling pax onto the next CHC-ZQN when possible. Problem with IVC would be lack of immigration facilities.)

I can't follow the record on the QF website, but to me it looks like they just kept trying and trying again to land in ZQN, shuttling between diversion ports CHC and DUD each time before settling to move to AKL (assuming no accommodation to be arrangeable at CHC or DUD and/or lack of proper facilities for QF to use to process all pax at either airport).

I still sense a lack of good judgement here, even if the situation was continuously difficult.

 

[straitman]

It was due to fly from SYD to Queenstown.

Apparently this is not due to aircraft failure but cautious pilots who don't like to land when visibility is lower than usual. Queenstown is a low tech airport without the runway guidance systems which assist aircraft to land.

Queenstown doesn’t have RADAR or runway lights, and the latest a plane can leave is half-an-hour before dusk or the airline will be fined, as happened recently when a Pacific Blue plane took off too late and the pilots were stood down.

Interesting story if it was about today, because all day I could hear (and see) DJ and ANZ planes coming and going… so why QF couldn’t land really surprises me, because everyone else was, and the weather wasn’t really that bad, just low cloud and a cold front. Wasn’t even snowing in town!

I do not know about DJ but I do know that the ANZ aircraft have a GPS RNAV approach available that is not available to the Qantas aircraft. This approach has considerably lower minimas (ie you can fly lower in the clouds) than what is other wise available.

This would account for the ANZ aircraft arriving and departing when QF could not.

 

[anat0l]

...the latest a plane can leave is half-an-hour before dusk or the airline will be fined, as happened recently when a Pacific Blue plane took off too late and the pilots were stood down.

From what I've read around various sources:

• It is up to the airlines to self-impose the guidelines to stick within the correct time limits. My guess is that this is the same as SYD curfew, i.e. ATC can't specifically stop an aircraft from breaking curfew without dispensation, even though the carrier will be fined.
• There hasn't been a record that I've seen that PB have been fined for this incident. In fact, there has been no conclusion to the investigation (but a lot of heated debate on PPRuNe, of course).
• According to PB, with an investigation of this type, standing down the flight crew is a standard procedure.
• There is a dispute as to whether the aircraft took off well over the guideline limit time, or only a few minutes afterwards. (PB are certainly pushing the latter).

Makes me glad that when I flew QF in May 2009, we flew out at 1700h sharp (QF2772 ZQN-CHC). I think there was one more flight to leave after us (i.e. the last NZ flight to AKL).

 

[straitman]

From what I've read around various sources:

• It is up to the airlines to self-impose the guidelines to stick within the correct time limits. My guess is that this is the same as SYD curfew, i.e. ATC can't specifically stop an aircraft from breaking curfew without dispensation, even though the carrier will be fined.
• There hasn't been a record that I've seen that PB have been fined for this incident. In fact, there has been no conclusion to the investigation (but a lot of heated debate on PPRuNe, of course).
• According to PB, with an investigation of this type, standing down the flight crew is a standard procedure.
• There is a dispute as to whether the aircraft took off well over the guideline limit time, or only a few minutes afterwards. (PB are certainly pushing the latter).

Makes me glad that when I flew QF in May 2009, we flew out at 1700h sharp (QF2772 ZQN-CHC). I think there was one more flight to leave after us (i.e. the last NZ flight to AKL).

I guess it depends upon who's 30 min rule it is. Is it a NZ CAA rule, a company rule or .... :?:

 

[samh004]

I do not know about DJ but I do know that the ANZ aircraft have a GPS RNAV approach available that is not available to the Qantas aircraft. This approach has considerably lower minimas (ie you can fly lower in the clouds) than what is other wise available.

This would account for the ANZ aircraft arriving and departing when QF could not.

I thought Qantas was meant to be getting that system installed, then Jetstar took over, and had problems, so they said Jetstar were getting it installed… and now it’s emerging that they didn’t install it at all, and look what happens?

It’s a something joke. I don’t know why they even bother flying to such a destination if they can’t even buy the equipment to get here in all weather.

From what I've read around various sources:

• It is up to the airlines to self-impose the guidelines to stick within the correct time limits. My guess is that this is the same as SYD curfew, i.e. ATC can't specifically stop an aircraft from breaking curfew without dispensation, even though the carrier will be fined.

I guess it depends upon who's 30 min rule it is. Is it a NZ CAA rule, a company rule or .... :?:

There was a write-up in the paper here about it, but I didn’t commit everything to memory. It’s a big scandal here, along with the council selling 25% of the airport to AKL.

The weather is meant to be the same tomorrow, so it’s likely my flight wont arrive at all, and I’ll be bussed somewhere, and then flown to Melbourne, probably miss my connection, fly to Brisbane, and by the time I get there, I’ll bet the trains will have stopped working. I think I know what the answer will be, but will Qantas be providing me with an alternate method to get home that matches my original budget?

And before anyone says they’ll put me on a flight to Brisbane, they better not, I have a 20% off duty free voucher and 2 bottles of Taittinger with my name on them waiting for me. I’m not flying anywhere but via Melbourne, otherwise I may as well have booked direct.

Rant over.

 

[markis10]

I guess it depends upon who's 30 min rule it is. Is it a NZ CAA rule, a company rule or .... :?:

Its a NZ CAA rule addressing the fact that many departures may not meet ICAO PANS–OPS minimum procedure design gradients and may need the 30 minutes for an approach back to the field should they loose an engine. ATC are not provided with policing powers for CAA rules, they can only clear an aircraft to depart on the basis there is no physical obstacles in the flight path.

I thought Qantas was meant to be getting that system installed, then Jetstar took over, and had problems, so they said Jetstar were getting it installed… and now it’s emerging that they didn’t install it at all, and look what happens?

Qantas and Air NZ developed the approach together, both use RNP elsewhere however the approach at ZQN is specifically for them, PB are still developing one (it requires over 100 actual flights), just because you have an approach does not mean its going to be successful, I have never flown into ZQN but it looks like an approach right up there with the checkerboard into HKG as far as difficulty goes!

Its not hard to see why night ops are a no no, I am not sure I would like to fly that approach even in a SR76!

because all day I could hear (and see) DJ and ANZ planes coming and going… so why QF couldn’t land

Shock horror - NEWSFLASH - weather can change LOL , what matters is the weather at the exact time of approach, and obviously it was not good enough for QF121, and they made the right decision IMHO, history is littered with the debris of flights that kept trying in similar environments because others had been successful before them.

 

[Worldtraveller8888]

I do not know about DJ but I do know that the ANZ aircraft have a GPS RNAV approach available that is not available to the Qantas aircraft. This approach has considerably lower minimas (ie you can fly lower in the clouds) than what is other wise available.

This would account for the ANZ aircraft arriving and departing when QF could not.

All the QF B737-800's can do RNAV approaches. Qantas was the first airline in the Southern Hemisphere to have their aircraft fitted and their crews trained to be able to do these approaches (I think it was only Alaskan that beat them to it in the Northern Hemisphere).

Assuming all the necessary equipment was servicable on this flight...that's shouldn't have been the reason.

WT

 

[samh004]

There are double services departing ZQN today, as the SYD and BNE flights are scheduled from yesterday. From the arrivals board I gathered QF185 ended in AKL too. Wonder why they didn't just bus them like they used to do.

Significantly clearer weather today.

 

[MelUser]

AN UPDATE:

Those pax who went on to Auckland have now arrived.

The passengers who drove from Dunedin have now been given their checked baggage.

Also, all passengers (including those who got off the plane in Dunedin) were rebooked on an AKL to ZQN flight this afternoon (which QF called QF 8121).

As an exception to the rule, QF is NOT cancelling the balance of itineraries of those who got off in Dunedin and would therefore have been no shows for this afternoon's AKL to ZQN flight.

By all accounts it was at least 30 pax - 1/2 the business cabin and the rest from economy.

 

[Janeski]

I was on this flight!! It was handled very well by the on board staff and pilot who did their utmost to help the situation but seemed to be majorly screwed up by ground/ support/ admin staff... the reason we could not stay in Christchurch was because of the Bledisloe and all hotel rooms were booked. We were then sent to Dunedin as there were supposedly hotel rooms there... only to find another large rugby game on and all hotel rooms booked out as well. We sat on the tarmac for close to three hours while qantas staff tried to figure out what to do. We were potentially going to go to Wellington and then advised that it would be Auckland. It is true that about 30 people disembarked without their luggage at Dunedin(they had booked hire cars literally as soon as we touched the ground and all hire cars in Dunedin were taken by these people) we were advised that if we got off the plane we would literally be fending for ourselves as there were no taxis and no hotels available. As were travelling with a baby and toddler we thought our best course of action was to stay on the plane.

By the time we reached our Hotel in Auckland it was midnight and we had had no food since taking off at 8.30am. This was with a newborn and 3 year old. The frustration and fatigue was almost indescribable.

We finally reached Queenstown at 3.30pm on Sunday 8th August and waited close to an hour for bags to come off the carousel.

My BIG question to those on on this forum is whether I should pursue Qantas for a refund of tickets or compensation??? We had accommodation booked, cars hired, ski tickets etc paid for which we were unable to use on the Sunday due to the more than 24 hour delay. I would be very interested to hear what those experienced in these matters could advise is reasonable.

Many thanks!!

 

[MelUser]

The other thing Qantas did to the poor souls that flew into AKL was to ring them at 1am in the morning (while they were asleep in their QF funded hotel room) and tell them that they were on a 10:30am flight to ZQN.

In fact the AKL-ZQN plane left at 2pm in the afternoon.

The other thing QF did was refuse to provide any inflight catering between AKL and ZQN!

Not sure about compensation. I'm not sure that you actually suffered a compesatable loss as QF paid for everything in AKL.

 

[NM]

My BIG question to those on on this forum is whether I should pursue Qantas for a refund of tickets or compensation??? We had accommodation booked, cars hired, ski tickets etc paid for which we were unable to use on the Sunday due to the more than 24 hour delay. I would be very interested to hear what those experienced in these matters could advise is reasonable.

Qantas met its obligations in getting you to your destination, albeit delayed. They provided you with accommodation during your delay. While it was an unfortunate and frustrating exercise, the cause of the delay and the circumstances around bouncing to Christchurch, Dunedin and then to Auckland seems to have been outside Qantas's control.

The travel insurance policy I took out for my recent skiing holiday in NZ included cover for such issues including ski tickets etc if unable to use. So I suggest your best course of action is to contact your travel insurance provider and see what they will cover under the circumstances.

 

[harvyk]

Hi Janeski,

I'd be looking at your travel insurance provider, as you may have a clause which allows you to recover costs in the event of a significant delay.

QF like most airlines specifically state that flight times do not form a part of the contract for carriage. If you went after QF you may at most get a $50 voucher.

 

[Janeski]

Thanks I really appreciate your advice and comments- I did not want to waste anyone's time going after a refund of ticket costs if qantas would not pay anyway!

 

[NM]

All the QF B737-800's can do RNAV approaches. Qantas was the first airline in the Southern Hemisphere to have their aircraft fitted and their crews trained to be able to do these approaches (I think it was only Alaskan that beat them to it in the Northern Hemisphere).

Assuming all the necessary equipment was servicable on this flight...that's shouldn't have been the reason.

WT

Air NZ has just been approved for lower minima for Queenstown ops. See http://www.australianfrequentflyer....new-zealand-naverus-hit-24936.html#post349514

 

[samh004]

My BIG question to those on on this forum is whether I should pursue Qantas for a refund of tickets or compensation??? We had accommodation booked, cars hired, ski tickets etc paid for which we were unable to use on the Sunday due to the more than 24 hour delay. I would be very interested to hear what those experienced in these matters could advise is reasonable.

Many thanks!!

Your questions have already been answered, though the one thing that I picked up on was ski tickets paid for on the day. I was there that day, albeit leaving, and my dad skied, most chairlifts were still on wind hold and the conditions (flat light, cloud, rain/snow) were terrible. Even if you had arrived the day before, you wouldn’t have been skiing.

Air NZ has just been approved for lower minima for Queenstown ops. See http://www.australianfrequentflyer....new-zealand-naverus-hit-24936.html#post349514

They were flying on that day anyway, I remember seeing them in the air on final and take-off.

 

[Janeski]

Your questions have already been answered, though the one thing that I picked up on was ski tickets paid for on the day. I was there that day, albeit leaving, and my dad skied, most chairlifts were still on wind hold and the conditions (flat light, cloud, rain/snow) were terrible. Even if you had arrived the day before, you wouldn’t have been skiing.

Well that is something!!! Thanks again for all your advice!

 

[MelUser]

FURTHER UPDATE:

Business Class passengers on this flight received today a $1000.00 travel voucher from Qantas.

The travel voucher is valid for 12 months and does not need to be used in one go (unlike refund credits).

Janeski: are you able to advise what, if anything, Qantas sent out to its economy class passengers on this flight?