QF Incident Management/Customer Service incompetence QF665 BNE-ADL 28/11/08

[Actualise]

In bullet form:

* I was pax on QF665 DEP 1800 BNE-ADL 28/11/08
* BNE airport had a number of QF and V cancellations
* included QF555(?) that was cancelled due to unserviceable aircraft - another thread here said it was lightning strike
* I am guessing we departed at 1820
* the flight was almost full
* bumpy ride from the outset
* no service except a few drinks to business class
* seatbelt light went off for just a few minutes then came back on and stayed on mostly

* lots of changes of altitude, direction and throttle
* at 1940(?) captain comes on and says that due to an impassable line of storms he had been unable to find a way through we had to go back to BNE
* things were busy with lots of aircraft and communications to manage and would get back to us when things quietened down
* further announcement that we had turned to head to SYD to refuel and then go on to ADL from there, but that we couldn't get to ADL by curfew so had to return to BNE
* apologised but that everything was out of our control and safety was first consideration
* landed at 2112

So, are lightning strikes or threat or turbulence sufficient reason not to travel through storms in East-Central Australia these days? Is it any different to other geographies? Is QF super-conservative given recent turbulence issues etc., or did the lightning strike spook the captain?

* After landing we were told that accomm/onward travel would all be arranged for us, but that the arrangements weren't known at this stage
* We should report to Ticketing Counter on ground floor
* everyone offloaded and went to ticketing counter
* ticketing counter was handling a bunch of offloaded pax from another flight (I guess a regional) - there was no room for 150 people to queue down there - that was a stupid idea
* then they came down and said we had to go to CityFlyer desk on Level 1
* back through the single remaining security checkpoint to the 1st floor
* no room up there to queue either
* one person on the counter (a very good natured woman)
* another guy came up 20 min later with a couple of cops (I think they anticipated that things would get ugly... now why would you think that except that you knew it was cough service you were going to deliver)
* a couple of hosties from another flight joined in to help bless their cotton socks - I suspect they were just kind-hearted souls
* lots of "Thank you for your patience" announcements but little info
* no systems or processes for handling the situation
* everyone stood in queue for hours - babies, mothers, old people - everyone
* arriving hoards of pax off other flights had their eyes hanging out their heads looking at this pathetic scene, as did their crews
* eventually at 2240 (I was 1/3rd of the way through the queue) I got a hotel room at "Terrace on Wickham" and cab vouchers and recommendation to keep receipts for my meals
* there was no effective triaging of the BNE-domiciled pax to help them get home for a good night's sleep
* they took more than 90 minutes until they eventually completed the survey of how many hotel rooms they would need
* then an announcement that there would be a supplementary flight to dep at 0800 today (Sat) and to be at the airport 1 hour before for normal check-in arrangements

God knows how long it took the rest of the pax to get sorted out.
If you were also on this flight please provide info of your experience and corroborate my times (these are working back from the phone calls I made).

So about QF customer service when there is an incident like this:
* why no systematic approach
* why, if they knew the aircraft was returning, didn't they force the staff to stay?
* why couldn't the estimates of how many rooms they need have been worked out - they had all the data - even printing it out and counting (and what are bloody computers for?) would have taken 5 minutes
* why couldn't they have stuck us all on a bus straight away and taken us to the hotel(s)?
These are just a few of the questions.

If you have been on flights like the O2 canister, or the clear air turbulence incidents, how were you handled?

If you have been on a cancelled flight or a redirected flight recently, how were you handled?

Do you think QF BNE is just incompetent or it is systemic?

I intend to write to Alan on this and would like more info about other people's experience.

Cheers,
Andrew.

 

[Commuter]

So, are lightning strikes or threat or turbulence sufficient reason not to travel through storms in East-Central Australia these days? Is it any different to other geographies? Is QF super-conservative given recent turbulence issues etc., or did the lightning strike spook the captain?

You weren't on the flight deck to see the weather radar or hear reports on the weather from other aircraft or the air traffic control or flight information services, so I do not think you would be qualified to question the decision of the captain in a sarcastic manner as you have done. The weather ahead may have been very severe indeed for all you know. "Lightening strike spook the captain?" Well, would you have preferred to be hit and then having to return to the port of departure - the likelihood is that you wouldn't have liked it much. Or would you have liked it if the aircraft incurred storm damage?

Australian thunderstorms can be some of the nastiest around the world. Please be thankful that the captain has made the safety-oriented decision. Qantas would could have taken the chance but they didn't - if you think that diversion makes it easier for airlines, please think again.

Some thunderstorms are too dangerous to travel through, full stop. I suggest you go and search for some photos of aircraft that have incurred damage by flying through severe thunderstorms.

Most of the time you can avoid them. But sometimes, there are solid walls that are not worth the risk of penetrating. I'm not saying that the captain's decision was perfect. I wasn't there, and I'm not him, so I can't make that decision. But how much doubting would they have to cop from passengers (myself included) for (hopefully) the best decision they make based on the the information they have at hand? They are (generally) the best trained one on the aeroplane, and their decision needs to be respected. Captains generally do have the passengers' interest in mind when making decisions, and if you think that they make a decision to divert for fun or to annoy their passengers etc, perhaps you should have a re-think.

So about QF customer service when there is an incident like this:
* why no systematic approach
* why, if they knew the aircraft was returning, didn't they force the staff to stay?
* why couldn't the estimates of how many rooms they need have been worked out - they had all the data - even printing it out and counting (and what are bloody computers for?) would have taken 5 minutes
* why couldn't they have stuck us all on a bus straight away and taken us to the hotel(s)?

Late at night, lots of weather-related disruptions, etc etc - it's not easy to deal with, and staff have a life and other commitments and they cannot be made to stay behind. They may have known how many rooms were needed - it might have been the matter of finding enough rooms. It's hard to be critical of them without knowing their side of the story.

When things like this happen, it can be quite difficult to find a hotel room at a short notice. Putting everyone on the bus and start randomly driving would not have been helpful. In fact, even finding a bus can be quite difficult! They can't click their finger and make hotel rooms and buses appear, and arranging for accounts with hotels with which they do not have a prior arrangement in itself can take a bit of time too.

But 1.5 hours to handle 1/3 of the queue does not sound too bad to me (assuming that the queue wasn't composed of just 10 people!), considering that they did not have a large number of people handling it.

I have been on three disrupted flights in the last month. I was handled very well in two of the cases (including one in Brisbane) - although it all took time and it was somewhat stressful (because I wasn't sure if I would have everything sorted out in time), I have no complaint.

They looked after me, they were courteous, and they tried to anticipate my needs as much as possible. It took time to sort out though, through no fault of their own. Things don't magically happen in five seconds. So the time it took did not really annoy me. I was just a little nervous of the possible consequence of things taking too long. Only one of the disrupted flight caused me a bit of a pain - but it was through lack of information provided by the ground crew (it wasn't a Qantas flight by the way). It wasn't much of a pain anyway.

I might sound like I'm a Qantas apologist, but I'm not. I just happen to know how things can be from airlines' perspective and and also having experienced many disruptions as a passenger, I know what it is like to deal with multiple disrupted flights. It's stressful for both sides.

By all means write and express your opinions on your experience, but overall, it doesn't sound so bad to me to be honest.

 

[Mal]

In some other countries, distressed pax in a similar situation would be lucky to get a voucher entitling them to a $75-$125 room (airline rate) and a standby for a flight in the morning.

Qantas rarely handles out of the norm events perfectly. But I'd rather deal with them than many other airlines around the place.

There is nothing stopping a pax in a similar situation from just walking away and grabbing a cab, booking their own hotel and calling Qantas reservations to deal with the situation. Qantas may re-imburse some or all of the expense upon presenting receipts. If no or little reimbursement occurs - then the cost was worth avoiding the 90 odd minute delay waiting in a queue.

 

[Skyring]

Forget checking people in and putting tags on luggage. Anyone can do that. The real job is handling tired, grumpy, inconvenienced people without getting into the same mind.

The flight was diverted for safety reasons. Sometimes the weather is such that there's a lot of storm activity. Given a choice between being stuffed around for a few hours and being banged around the cabin breaking limbs - or worse, being dead - well, there's no choice.

Even if I was strapped safely in, unharmed, if it was a choice between hours of inconvenience and someone else, perhaps a flight attendant, perhaps grandmum, being injured or worse, I'll take the being stuffed around, thanks.

Qantas has done this thing many times before, and they know exactly how much inconvenience it is to all concerned. They've had people complaining, they've had people going to court. They don't divert planes lightly. But sometimes they have to do it.

Unless you have a genuine and serious grievance - oh, I dunno, your kidney machine was in checked baggage and despite repeated requests the staff didn't fetch it for you and as a result your kidney seized up and had to be given to the cat - probably best to swallow the bile.

 

[markis10]

Your flight sounds like it was a text book flight for storm related conditions, altitude and directional changes cost the company money and require ATC permisssion in most instances so I doubt it was the captain being spooked, in fact it was a good sign your captain was thinking and reacting to the conditions on hand.

As for the issues back on arrival at BNE, the last flight for QF leaves at 7.50PM and things start to scale down before then, your flight turned back around an hour after that, which is a little late to recall staff heading home for a weekend. As for requiring staff to stay past the end of work, you might want to check what their families think of that, I would not be surprised to hear that some of those very staff were heading home to continue the storm cleanup from earlier in the week .

As others have said, if you dont like leaving arrangements in the hands of others who may have different priorities or focus to you, then take matters into your own hands by making your own arrangements. Many seasoned travellers do so in similar conditions, often resulting in better flights and accomodation for themselves at no cost.

 

[munitalP]

Forget checking people in and putting tags on luggage. Anyone can do that. The real job is handling tired, grumpy, inconvenienced people without getting into the same mind.

The flight was diverted for safety reasons. Sometimes the weather is such that there's a lot of storm activity. Given a choice between being stuffed around for a few hours and being banged around the cabin breaking limbs - or worse, being dead - well, there's no choice.

Even if I was strapped safely in, unharmed, if it was a choice between hours of inconvenience and someone else, perhaps a flight attendant, perhaps grandmum, being injured or worse, I'll take the being stuffed around, thanks.

Qantas has done this thing many times before, and they know exactly how much inconvenience it is to all concerned. They've had people complaining, they've had people going to court. They don't divert planes lightly. But sometimes they have to do it.

Unless you have a genuine and serious grievance - oh, I dunno, your kidney machine was in checked baggage and despite repeated requests the staff didn't fetch it for you and as a result your kidney seized up and had to be given to the cat - probably best to swallow the bile.

Hear Hear Skyring

I understand the frustration of the OP, I got stuck in limbo in Adelaide a few years back due to a non landing at MEL after a long flight from SIN, then diverted to Adelaide (Fog) then got stuck on the ground for various reasons for over 10 hours if I remember right...

But....

At the time, QF didn't seem to do much or seemed very unorganised and like the OP's experience last night, seemed unorganised and frankley pathetic in their ability. It wasn't till a while later when I looked back I realised things are not that easy. We tend to see the smaller picture when we are angry, tired or upset and it is easy to loose focus on how hard the QF (in this case) staff are working to try and make your life easy...

BNE, I challenge anyone to find 180 hotel rooms on a Friday night at short notice - in fact, 180 hotel rooms short notice any night and any city!

If everyone was accommodated, taxied to and from, at least had a hot shower and a warm bed, be happy - there's many airlines in the world who would not have been able to do this for you...

The pilot choosing not to do something due to safety reasons - how can anyone possibly complain? My love of life and beer is frequently in the hands of a airline pilot - I choose to take their decisions without question or anger - I do believe they also have a love of life and a strong urge to get all PAX safe to their destinations.

Mr!

 

[russ]

So, are lightning strikes or threat or turbulence sufficient reason not to travel through storms in East-Central Australia these days? Is it any different to other geographies? Is QF super-conservative given recent turbulence issues etc., or did the lightning strike spook the captain?

As a pilot, I keep well away from thunderstorms. Their power is immense and can lead to structural failure of the aircraft. If you'd like to know more about it, just do an internet search (this board won't let me post any web links.)

So about QF customer service when there is an incident like this:

I agree this was pretty poor. As Skyring says, QF has done this many times before, so I think they should be a lot better at it!

 

[Actualise]

Crikey!! I didn't mean to set off the dogs.

Commuter just jumped to conclusions. I wasn't being sarcastic - you can't read tone from my post, surely, and I'm a new member here, so hadn't seen the dogs - it looks like a good site and I'm prepared to contribute, but please don't get so narky. I asked questions and got people's opinions and some knowledge. That was what I wanted, and thanks for the content in your post.

No, I'm not the captain, and I don't get the view or the information he gets nor do I have the training or knowledge of the aircraft's capabilities - I wasn't angry then, nor am I angry now. I just sat and watched the chaos and wondered.

I've travelled a lot - I've landed and taken off in Chicago O'Hare more times than I can remember in sleet, lightning, high winds etc and the captain makes little comment, as one example. Not finding a route that would works surprised me - hence the questions. I've not had this in Australia before. My real beef was with the Incident Management and Customer Service.

My beef with Qantas was incompetence of their system (not the individuals who managed to maintain courtesy and a pleasant manner despite the pressure). There appeared to be no preparation done in the time before the aircraft arrived in BNE. There appeared to be no rational system to handle the situation - how many hotel rooms are needed, how do we contact people, etc. There was no appreciation for the people standing up in a queue with no food - most since lunchtime, and nothing to drink unless you were in business. This was a 6PM departure.

They knew we were turning back at 1940 or 2020 Sydney time. It wasn't that late.

I have had disruptions before, including never getting to destination, but never like this.

Mal makes a good point that it is easier to make your own arrangements. If I had known what it was going to be like I would have. I was surprised at their lack of a system.

Yes, getting that many hotels at times would be impossible. As it happens I don't think it was difficult, but it may have been. They didn't even imply that was the hard part.

As a QF shareholder I'd like them to make the system work well, and generally if they keep the customer's happy that generally means better profits.

Perhaps forcing staff to stay is too hard - they need some other system in place. They could use IT and call centre staff that are there anyways, which would make life easier for the few folks on the ground.

Truly, I felt like I was in India - everyone saying all the right things, but really just total chaos reigning most of the time.

QF are a service business in Australia and they set their own expectations with their over the top ads and mega money spent on marketing. Time to spend some money on systematising incident handling so that it goes like clockwork and staff are supported in the process of managing the situation.

 

[Skyring]

A cabbie's view of recent chaos may be found here.

And anybody feeling the urge to click on something while they are there, each page has a couple of Google ads, contributions to my next RTW flight gratefully received...

 

[pauly7]

Qantas rarely handles out of the norm events perfectly. But I'd rather deal with them than many other airlines around the place.

.

I agree, give me an airline who does handle them perfectly!

Thank yourself you weren't on JQ or DJ who would just dump you on the curb (metaphorically!) - both I have personally had big issues with how they dealt with similar circumstances to your own.

 

[openseat]

To give Actualise some credit - effective triaging can make a big difference in how these situations are handled.

I have had the bad experiences of very long lines and poorly managed interrupted flight operations, but also very good experiences. Earlier in the year I was on a very delayed AA flight DFW-NRT and missed my connection. They were very proactive in the way they handled the situation in having a counter set up with various categories signposted above each person there - so a very long queue was broken down into smaller queues and I only heard one person complaining about it.
A counter point to this was flying Ryanair () when the plane didn't show in Rome, which meant a very expensive taxi ride from CIA to FCO and an even more expensive one way ticket to make it back to London. Absolutely no care or responsibility. Thankfully travel insurance came through on that one.

Surely if QF know there is a large lot of storms in the area then they can be proactive. Or at least some manager of airport operations should show some initiatives once they know the plane is returning.

 

[docjames]

I've partially commented on BNE 28/11 in this thread:

http://www.frequentflyer.com.au/com...omestic-scheduling-have-15481.html#post206489


We got out at 1920 - and it was quite rough, but not so bad i would have preferred to have turned around. the seatbelt sign was on until well over the halfway point BNE-MEL.

Finding rooms for the 150pax on your flight (plus fixing up the mess from all the other flights that evening) is not simple. it's not just ring one hotel and say (150 rooms please) - they're likely to need to contact multiple hotels, provide multiple details etc. next time you book by phone for a hotel, time how long it takes, then multiply by 150.

Agree with some other posters - glad it wasnt me stuck there, yes i would have been mega frustrated, but at the end of the day, QF do try their best, and i would have understood. If it happens once or twice, i'd cop it sweet. Multiple time maybe not. AND i'd rather be dealing with QF than others


(eg. 4 of us on Cubana CUN-HAV last september - plane not going due to airport closed (hurricane), you're waitlisted, cant tell you when as all the flights this week are full and they're not going anyway. Come back each day for the (once daily) flight (along with everyone else who's on cancelled flights). No, we wont pay for hotel - there's a phone over there, and we cant tell you when you'll be flying, let alone put on an extra flight to move everyone who's stuck here!))

Makes QF seem good really......

 

[Dave Noble]

I have found QF service in a problem work well, but then I used some initiative

Whilst the aeroplane I was on from BNE-BNE was taxiing back to the gate, I phoned the Sofitel and booked rooms, When at the gate, rather than queue for service, I went straight to a taxi and headed to the hotel; en route to hotel I phoned QF Reservations and arranged rebooking onto a suitable flight the next day. I was at the hotel about 35 minutes after we arrived at the gate

When I got home to Sydney, I just sent a letter with the receipts to Qantas and a few days later they sent me a cheque

Given this was a weather related issue in my case, this was a *lot* better than would have been provided by , say, American Airlines who would just wipe their hands of a weather related issue

Dave

 

[Happy Dude]

I have found QF service in a problem work well, but then I used some initiative

Whilst the aeroplane I was on from BNE-BNE was taxiing back to the gate, I phoned the Sofitel and booked rooms, When at the gate, rather than queue for service, I went straight to a taxi and headed to the hotel; en route to hotel I phoned QF Reservations and arranged rebooking onto a suitable flight the next day. I was at the hotel about 35 minutes after we arrived at the gate

When I got home to Sydney, I just sent a letter with the receipts to Qantas and a few days later they sent me a cheque

Dave

If QF are happy for people to take matters into their own hands, it begs the question:

Why don't QF just tell everyone to make their own arrangements and send in the receipts for reimbursement, and rebook flights at their earliest convenience?

They wouldn't need any triage or systems in place at the airport, except an announcement.

 

[Dave Noble]

If QF are happy for people to take matters into their own hands, it begs the question:

Why don't QF just tell everyone to make their own arrangements and send in the receipts for reimbursement, and rebook flights at their earliest convenience?

They wouldn't need any triage or systems in place at the airport, except an announcement.

Not eveyone is in a position to be able to sort out their own arrangements. They may not have the spare funds to pay these things out

They announced on flight for all those living in Brisbane area to go home n phone n rebook

Would have made sense to suggest to others to sort themselves out if they could

Dave

 

[Happy Dude]

Not eveyone is in a position to be able to sort out their own arrangements. They may not have the spare funds to pay these things out
Dave

QF assistance for those unable to sort their own arrangements could simply be mentioned as part of the announcement.

So what happens if the hotel rate you pay is higher than the QF rate? Do QF reimburse the full amount you pay or just the amount they (QF) can procure the room for.

I'm asking because if it ever happens to me, I'll make sure I have the Marriot or Sofitel in the speed dial.

 

[Dave Noble]

QF assistance for those unable to sort their own arrangements could simply be mentioned as part of the announcement.

So what happens if the hotel rate you pay is higher than the QF rate? Do QF reimburse the full amount you pay or just the amount they (QF) can procure the room for.

I'm asking because if it ever happens to me, I'll make sure I have the Marriot or Sofitel in the speed dial.

Don't know. My corporate rate at the Sofitel is pretty decent and Qf had no qualms meeting the room rate, breakfast , taxis and some incidentals

Dave

 

[JohnK]

If you have been on a cancelled flight or a redirected flight recently, how were you handled?

Generally I cannot complain how I have been treated by QF when a flight has been cancelled or I have turned up at the airport late for my flight.

Do you think QF BNE is just incompetent or it is systemic?

Is this just limited to QF? In the last few months I have found BNE has deteriorated to the point where I am not enjoying the whole airport experience on a Friday night. I should be looking forward to going home yet I have to fight check in queues and airport security. I don't understand why they only use the 3 x-ray machines instead of 4. I have also noticed that the setting is a lot more sensitive and sometimes I have to go through the x-ray machine 2-3 times.

Last Friday night is best described as a shocker. I arrived at BNE airport just after 5:30pm and I was in the lounge after 6:30pm. There was more than 20 people in the business class check in queue and I was there for over 20 minutes when they announced that QF555 was cancelled. This I cannot understand as the flight was due to depart at 18:45 and we were not informed it was cancelled until 17:57!

As soon as I heard the announcement I ran over to QF ticketing and with only 3 people in front of me it still took ~15 minutes before I was given a boarding pass for the last flight of the night. Then another wait of ~15 minutes in the business class check in queue again and another wait in the security queue and I was finally in the lounge. By the way when I got back to the business class check in queue the second time there was over 30 people in line at QF ticketing. So I was lucky I got there earlier than most.

Can't blame QF or the airport for any of the issues. Apparently it is all my fault for not having a flexible ticket....

 

[laffer]

If QF are happy for people to take matters into their own hands, it begs the question:

Why don't QF just tell everyone to make their own arrangements and send in the receipts for reimbursement, and rebook flights at their earliest convenience?

They wouldn't need any triage or systems in place at the airport, except an announcement.

That is a very good question. I do not think it is necessarily fair on the OP to be critical of him not making his own arrangements. The vast majority of passengers would not have known that it was possible to do this and to be honest without some form of advice from QF that they would reimburse me for such expenses I would be reluctant to do it myself. Besides who is to say that people can necessarily afford to stump up the cost and wait for a reimbursement in who knows when.

 

[Actualise]

I have complained to both BNE and MEL airports about the cleanliness and general management of the airport recently - lots of duck-shoving.

"Qantas have the lease on the whole of that building"
and then QF say
"That is the responsibility of the concession holders"
and then the concession holders say
"That is the Airport's responsibility. I've been raising it with them for more than a year. I have a plan to spent $x000 to redo the whole fit out of the area, but they have not approved it".

The classic was the absolute stench in the baggage claim area at BNE. It smelt like that stale urine smell... "We have converted to a waterless urinal arrangement, and the cleaners are having challenges with the smell".

Or the birds in MEL airport who have learnt to fly through the doors and feast in the food hall... and sit on the non-functional displays that QF have all around the place ;-)

Cheers,
Andrew.