QF downgrade voucher

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Optics

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JohnK said:
Interesting you mention sackable offence. How would the company know if they did not see boarding passes and only saw the invoice from travel agent or airline.

A few years back one of my golfing buddies went to China in business class for work and the return flight HKG-SYD was full in business class. He was offered a seat on the next days flight or a downgrade to economy, I think first row with the other 2 seats blocked, and $1000 in cash. Guess which option he chose?
Well, apart from the ethical issues and not being able to sleep at night because of them :!: , I would worry about just how the transaction would be reported by the airline to the TA and/or company. They may have a special code or something that demonstrates the downgrading and payment of compensation, that would be understood by the TA at least. Is it worth the risk for the money?
 

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JohnK said:
A few years back one of my golfing buddies went to China in business class for work and the return flight HKG-SYD was full in business class. He was offered a seat on the next days flight or a downgrade to economy, I think first row with the other 2 seats blocked, and $1000 in cash. Guess which option he chose?

Unless they offered the refund from J-Y too, I would hope that he didn't accept the economy offer since I suspect that that difference between an economy return and a business return would well exceed $1000 ( cheapest Y basis return is $1900 vs cheapest C at $7100 )

Dave
 

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Dave Noble said:
Unless they offered the refund from J-Y too, I would hope that he didn't accept the economy offer since I suspect that that difference between an economy return and a business return would well exceed $1000 ( cheapest Y basis return is $1900 vs cheapest C at $7100 )

Dave

I think JohnK meant one-way downgrade. But your point still applies for that too.

Some companies get a regular detailed report from their TA and/or airline. A downgrade would be red-flagged.
 

Dave Noble

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Kiwi Flyer said:
I think JohnK meant one-way downgrade. But your point still applies for that too.

If it was a downgrade 1 way , I would expect the fare to be recalculated as 50% of the lowest combinable r/t economy fare and business fare paid. That would be 50% of the $1900 plus 50% of the $7100 = $850 + $3550 = $4400 . Subtract that from $7100 paid, that would give a refund due of $2700. If offering $1000 compensation, I would expect the cheque to be for $3700.

If they just offered $1000, then that wouldn't be compensation but an underpayment of the fare difference.

Dave
 

JohnK

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Optics said:
Well, apart from the ethical issues and not being able to sleep at night because of them :!: , I would worry about just how the transaction would be reported by the airline to the TA and/or company. They may have a special code or something that demonstrates the downgrading and payment of compensation, that would be understood by the TA at least. Is it worth the risk for the money?
I wasn't discussing ethics and did not say it was right or wrong. The company paid for the tickets in advance and he was downgraded one-way HKG-SYD. He still works for the company, definitely did not inform them of the payment and still sleeps at night. I am guessing that not all companies ask for detail reporting of all flights taken.
 

Optics

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JohnK said:
I wasn't discussing ethics and did not say it was right or wrong. The company paid for the tickets in advance and he was downgraded one-way HKG-SYD. He still works for the company, definitely did not inform them of the payment and still sleeps at night. I am guessing that not all companies ask for detail reporting of all flights taken.
Yes, sorry did not mean to imply anything about your ethics :oops: . I was looking for a joking "shock/horror" smiley, but there isn't one.
 

JohnK

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Optics said:
Yes, sorry did not mean to imply anything about your ethics :oops: . I was looking for a joking "shock/horror" smiley, but there isn't one.
That is OK my ethics are questionable at the best of times.

If it was me I would have taken the taxi fares, meals, accommodation for the night and flown the next day unless I was urgently needed back in Australia.
 

Optics

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JohnK said:
That is OK my ethics are questionable at the best of times.

If it was me I would have taken the taxi fares, meals, accommodation for the night and flown the next day unless I was urgently needed back in Australia.
Me too, there's worse places to stay an extra night than HK.
 

oz_mark

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simongr said:
Interesting thought - could one get the company to pay for a J seat and get a downgrade and commensurate voucher redmeeable for personal flying. Admittedly slightly unethical and likely to be picked up when I am auditing people's expense claims. Also as people are probably aware the likelihood of me volunteering to go from F->J is pretty low (given F is so rare) and J->whY is a non-starter.

I wonder why they call it a downgrade voucher - why not just refund the difference in fare paid...

Depends on how they need to go about processing the refund. I have seen policies that state if a downgrade occurs to ensure you get the documentation so that the TA could process the refund. Presumably the "downgrade voucher" provides this documentation
 
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NM

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JohnK said:
Interesting you mention sackable offence. How would the company know if they did not see boarding passes and only saw the invoice from travel agent or airline.
It is a requirement of the travel expense claim process at my company to submit boarding passes (or at least a photo copy of the boarding pass).
 

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NM said:
It is a requirement of the travel expense claim process at my company to submit boarding passes (or at least a photo copy of the boarding pass).
Excuse my ignorance but this is the first time that I have heard of any company asking employess to submit boarding passes. Not sure that I entirely agree with this policy. The boarding pass may not show exactly which class the company paid for originally. Only proof that you actually took the flight.

What about point to point airfares that are booked as a xONEx? Are you allowed to request an upgrade of the booked airfare to a higher class with FF points? What if you had an op-up? Would the company ask you to pay the difference from Y->J or J->F since they purchased the original ticket and you received the benefit.
 

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JohnK said:
Excuse my ignorance but this is the first time that I have heard of any company asking employess to submit boarding passes. Not sure that I entirely agree with this policy. The boarding pass may not show exactly which class the company paid for originally. Only proof that you actually took the flight.
That is exactly why they want it. They want to know that someone has not booked a flight and claimed the expense and then cancelled it and received a refund. BP is proof that you actually travelled. This has always been a requirement for my travel expense claims.
JohnK said:
What about point to point airfares that are booked as a xONEx? Are you allowed to request an upgrade of the booked airfare to a higher class with FF points? What if you had an op-up? Would the company ask you to pay the difference from Y->J or J->F since they purchased the original ticket and you received the benefit.
I regularly upgrade my flights. I upgraded my SIN-BNE flight last month. Company paid for B fare and I used 40,000 QF FF points to upgrade to J. So my boarding pass said business class and seat 1A. That is exactly the boarding pass that was submitted with my expense claim.

But if they were looking to audit someone who was suspected of rorting the system, they have the proof of the actual cabin flown and would be in a position to ask questions. They have no issue with me using my QF FF points to upgrade. They would have an issue if I was to chose to downgrade my class of travel (if they had paid for J) and pocketed the difference.

If it was a once-off involuntary downgrade for which the airline paid compensation, I would be expected to inform my manager, but would be very unlikely that I would be required to repay that compensation to the company. But if it was a voluntary downgrade or bump, then the refund belongs to the company and not to me.
 

acampbel

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I agree with the $1K being pocketed by the employee. It was their right to expect the scheduled service to be available, and if they had taken the business class flight the following day they would either lose a day with family or a day at work.

I was delayed overnight in Brisbane a few months back due to missing the Sydney curfew. Qantas paid for meals, taxis and accommodation, and later sent me a $200 travel voucher as compensation. Does anyone here think I should pass it over to my boss?


Cheers,

Andrew

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Dave Noble

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acampbel said:
I agree with the $1K being pocketed by the employee. It was their right to expect the scheduled service to be available, and if they had taken the business class flight the following day they would either lose a day with family or a day at work.

If it was actual compensation to the traveller for the inconveniance, I agree that it should be kept by the passsenger. If it was however, a refund of the cost of a Business ticket down to the Economy Class, then that would imo be due to go back to the company

Dave
 

acampbel

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Dave Noble said:
If it was actual compensation to the traveller for the inconveniance, I agree that it should be kept by the passsenger. If it was however, a refund of the cost of a Business ticket down to the Economy Class, then that would imo be due to go back to the company

Dave

I would agree with you if economy was the norm, and J was only purchased through lack of choice, but if J was the agreed basis of travel then that is what the employee is entitled to. How would you then get the company to compensate the employee if they gave up the $1K? It seems easier to let the pax come to a suitable arrangement with the airline for compensation.


Cheers,

Andrew
 

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My view is that if it is an involuntary downgrade or bump, and in no way volunteered by the traveller, then the travel does deserve it. If it is a result of a voluntary bump or downgrade (i.e. the airline calling for volunteers to bump or downgrade) then it belongs to the person or company who is paying for the travel.
 

acampbel

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NM said:
My view is that if it is an involuntary downgrade or bump, and in no way volunteered by the traveller, then the travel does deserve it. If it is a result of a voluntary bump or downgrade (i.e. the airline calling for volunteers to bump or downgrade) then it belongs to the person or company who is paying for the travel.

And again .... how would you compensate the employee if the company gets the cash? Is it just a case of "bad luck"? If my company gives me a voucher for dinner that is intended for my wife and I (which it has), and I decide to take the whole family for a more down-market meal that meets the budget (which I might) then what does my company care? They have budgeted for an amount of money to achieve a desired result and got that result. End of story.


Cheers,

Andrew

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JohnK

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NM said:
My view is that if it is an involuntary downgrade or bump, and in no way volunteered by the traveller, then the travel does deserve it. If it is a result of a voluntary bump or downgrade (i.e. the airline calling for volunteers to bump or downgrade) then it belongs to the person or company who is paying for the travel.
My narration of the story was for a person who in no way volunteered to be downgraded but was told you either wait till tomorrow or you can have a whole economy row to yourself and $1000 in cash. He wanted to be back in Sydney, and as a contractor, to get to work the next day so he took the downgrade and the money.

In my opinion he was right to pocket the money. As far as I am concerned he did not cheat the company as they paid for business class airfares and he slummed it in economy to get back to work. YMMV!
 

Mal

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acampbel said:
And again .... how would you compensate the employee if the company gets the cash? Is it just a case of "bad luck"? If my company gives me a voucher for dinner that is intended for my wife and I (which it has), and I decide to take the whole family for a more down-market meal that meets the budget (which I might) then what does my company care? They have budgeted for an amount of money to achieve a desired result and got that result. End of story.
.

I think where the dodgyness starts coming into a voluntary downgrade situation is a situation like the following:

My employer pays for me to fly to New York and arrive Sat Night in time for a meeting on Monday.
Instead of catching that flight, I bump myself to the next flight where I arrive Sunday night (or I downgrade myself to Economy). I'm no longer as rested as I would have been if I was there on Sat night having flown Business to New York...

In the case, I don't believe the employee should be entitled to any compensation from the airline. That should be returned to the company concerned.
 

acampbel

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Mal,

I agree that manipulating circumstances with the express purpose of gaining a kickback is very dodgy, but the examples quoted so far concern involuntary bumps/downgrades. I recently travelled SIN-SYD via Perth due to a lack of availability in economy. I could have travelled on Saturday night but that would have meant a day away from my family. Now in my case the difference was :-

A night's accomodation saved
A cheaper airfare
More miles/SC's

The first 2 benifited my company, the 3rd was a plus for me. Should they pay me the $'s saved and I hand over the miles?

I think these issues need to be handled sensibly rather than by accountants.


Cheers,

Andrew
 
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