Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[Melburnian1]

My understanding is the duty clock starts and finishes at the same time for the entire 4 pilot crew irrespective of who did what on the aircraft. It also does not stop when they "sleep". Also remember the duty clock starts ticking before they step on the aircraft.

I think maximum allowed duty hours is 23 for PS - under an agreement with CASA and using some type of special fatigue management system. Additionally no pilot is allowed to accumulate more than 8 consecutive hours behind the joystick.

Can pilots or for that matter anyone really get "real" sleep on an airplane? The pilot bunks are supposed to be sound attenuated as well.

I thought ages ago @jb747 said it was 22 (prior to PS), but perhaps he can kindly remind us.

You raise a very good point about 'proper' sleep. I find it harder to sleep in J on an aircraft than in any class on almost all trains. Pilots on these super lengthy flights may be sometimes trying to sleep when their body clock says otherwise.

 

[AuSammy]

Given that virtually no one other than B2 aircrew have experienced 22 hour flights before, I wonder if we may see incidents of passenger freakouts once these kick off.

This flight breaks well into new territory in terms of single fight duration for the general public.

There will no doubt be certain PAX, who hit their threshold at some point., and then have some sort of agitated psychotic episode. I guess we will have to wait and see, but I think it's a distinct possibility.

May also see people firing up ciggies in the toilets?

SingAir flights to NYC already 18-19 hours and 28 flights a week for how long now? Haven’t seen anything exceptional in the media.

Qantas flight PER-LHR and DFW-MEL 17-19 hours and daily nonstop (until the war) for how now? Haven’t seen anything exceptional in the media.

Not sure why PS is generating so much OMG type commentary

 

[Saab34]

Diverting these flights will become quite costly as aircraft remain out of place, crew stuck in a different airport, the flow on effects are not great either.

 

[dajop]

Diverting these flights will become quite costly as aircraft remain out of place, crew stuck in a different airport, the flow on effects are not great either.

And A380’s diverting to Balu are not costly and disruptive?

It’s part of the deal when you operate a small number of flights a long way from home.

 

[exceladdict]

Given that virtually no one other than B2 aircrew have experienced 22 hour flights before, I wonder if we may see incidents of passenger freakouts once these kick off.

This flight breaks well into new territory in terms of single fight duration for the general public.

There will no doubt be certain PAX, who hit their threshold at some point., and then have some sort of agitated psychotic episode. I guess we will have to wait and see, but I think it's a distinct possibility.

May also see people firing up ciggies in the toilets?

It seems logical that the chance of it happening increases, the more you push people towards their limits. It just depends if there's some unknown point after which the human body can't take much more of being in one place. I guess we'll find out!

I thought ages ago @jb747 said it was 22 (prior to PS), but perhaps he can kindly remind us.

You raise a very good point about 'proper' sleep. I find it harder to sleep in J on an aircraft than in any class on almost all trains. Pilots on these super lengthy flights may be sometimes trying to sleep when their body clock says otherwise.

Definitely, it will be interesting (though i doubt ever public) how the fatigue management works in practice - though imagine there's parallels in terms of existing shift work that 'science' will be drawn from.

SingAir flights to NYC already 18-19 hours and 28 flights a week for how long now? Haven’t seen anything exceptional in the media.

Qantas flight PER-LHR and DFW-MEL 17-19 hours and daily nonstop (until the war) for how now? Haven’t seen anything exceptional in the media.

Not sure why PS is generating so much OMG type commentary

I feel like there was plenty of hype about PER<>LHR and similarly, the OMG commentary is two factors - it's interesting (at least to us flight nerds here on AFF), and the PR engine is working.

 

[justinbrett]

Diverting these flights will become quite costly as aircraft remain out of place, crew stuck in a different airport, the flow on effects are not great either.

How is that different to QF1 or 9 diverting? If anything PS makes it easier because there will be two A350-1000ULRs operating to LHR daily. Right now it's one of each type.

 

[Quickstatus]

Part of the fatigue management also apparently includes
Immediately before the flight 48-72 hours spent resting in local time before and after the PS flight.
Perhaps also some rostering changes and stricter fatigue recognition and assessments prior to a PS flight.

Is this the first time that an airline gets to design it own fatigue risk management system?
In any case, CASA has approved the Project sunrise FRMS which exceeds the legacy 20hr limit. I suspect the CASA-QF FRMS agreement wont be made public.

PS is not going to be immune to diversions and I dont think there will be necessarily any more diversions. The issue is the likelihood the pilots will have to go to the hotel after a diversion.
When the A380 diverted to Baku GYD, the pilots went to the hotel. If PS sunrise diverts to GYD, it will be more than likely that the pilots will also go to the hotel.

Fuel is not the issue. That can be managed by optimising routes and payload including passengers. They could have enough fuel to remain airborne for 24hrs. The issue is time - which stops for no one.
Ultimately if the fuel stars dont align with the time stars, then maybe better to preemptively plan a stop somewhere like SIN or cancel the flight. Obviously this requires some forward planning and would require forward weather predictions. Maybe some seasons are better or worse.

 

[Melburnian1]

Part of the fatigue management also apparently includes
Immediately before the flight 48-72 hours spent resting in local time before and after the PS flight.
Perhaps also some rostering changes and stricter fatigue recognition and assessments prior to a PS flight.

Is this the first time that an airline gets to design it own fatigue risk management system?
In any case, CASA has approved the Project sunrise FRMS which exceeds the legacy 20hr limit

PS is not going to be immune to diversions and I dont think there will be necessarily any more diversions. The issue is the likelihood the pilots will have to go to the hotel after a diversion.
When the A380 diverted to Baku GYD, the pilots went to the hotel. If PS sunrise diverts to GYD, it will be more than likely that the pilots will also go to the hotel.

Fuel is not the issue. That can be managed by optimising routes and payload including passengers. They could have enough fuel to remain airborne for 24hrs. The issue is time - which stops for no one.

@Quickstatus, are you implying if there's a diversion that pilots will have to spend 48 to 72 hours at the 'intermediate' enforced hotel stay?

Or will they be able to 'merely' spend 24 hours on land before the journey is resumed with them?

 

[Quickstatus]

because there will be two A350-1000ULRs operating to LHR daily

How would that be mitigating?

if there's a diversion that pilots will have to spend 48 to 72 hours at the 'intermediate' enforced hotel stay?

I dont know the rules after a PS diversion but apparently 48-72hrs after a 22hr PS flight.
If they diverted to GYD for instance after a medical diversion, their actual duty hours would be 5 hours less - say 17hrs.

 

[TheRealTMA]

EK's showers are limited to five minutes a person.

that's adequate.

 

[lovestotravel]

that's adequate.

At less than 5 litres per minute, it's not much, it's 2.5 buckets of water

 

[Quickstatus]

that's adequate.

Agree. I timed my one experience and it was 3 minutes (rounded up)

At less than 5 litres per minute

If you keep the tap running.
Lots of experience camping and 5 L of questionable river water more than adequate

 

[TeaKozy]

At less than 5 litres per minute, it's not much, it's 2.5 buckets of water

Restrict it to the passengers sitting in the front row of First (First+ anyone?)

 

[Quickstatus]

Will PS be crewed by SYD based Cabin crew?

Will PS pilots have to be local to SYD/LHR 48 hours before a flight. Can they for example commute in from another airport assuming same time zone?

Restrict it to the passengers sitting in the front row of First (First+ anyone?)

Are you suggesting that 5L/ min is not enough for the great unwashed?

 

[TeaKozy]

Are you suggesting that 5L/ min is not enough for the great unwashed?

Compromise - 25L for First+, 15L for the next two and the last person gets whatever’s left in the hose.

 

[jrfsp]

Will PS be crewed by SYD based Cabin crew?

I’d assume LHR based (cheaper), in all honesty I find the service better anyway.

 

[justinbrett]

How would that be mitigating?

Optionality, you have more crews in place, you've got the ability to switch crews and aircraft between routes.

It wouldn't take much to schedule crew turnarounds so that there's two pilots available to do a intra-Euro rescue of a diversion. No extra flying pay unless there's actually a diversion, just the usual allowances which is pocket change compared to cancelling a flight.

How much easier is unknown, but there's more options than operating two different types.

 

[offshore171]

Restrict it to the passengers sitting in the front row of First (First+ anyone?)

An arrivals lounge would be a better option.

There used to be the AA lounge available to QF1 but they abandoned that arrangement. Has it been revealed whether they will reinstate something for this flight?

 

[TeaKozy]

An arrivals lounge would be a better option.

There used to be the AA lounge available to QF1 but they abandoned that arrangement. Has it been revealed whether they will reinstate something for this flight?

That arrivals lounge was fantastic. Used it coming off QF9 pre-COVID. (And chauffeur drive…)

 

[Quickstatus]

so that there's two pilots available to do a intra-Euro rescue of a diversion

That would mean an extra contingent in LHR at any time?
It could be fractionally provided - crew layover 24hrs more than required for instance?