Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[evanb]

But they can respond by continuing to offer a better product and at better prices if they choose. These carriers simply aren’t going to roll over.
If anything it’s a great outcome for Australian passengers as we will have plenty of options to choose from and hopefully a nice little price war from time to time

Sure, but they can't go non-stop. That's the bet QF made on PER-LHR and it paid off, even more than they expected to the extent that they removed the MEL leg.

 

[justinbrett]

I was answering a post that said the two extra hours makes little difference to cost, pointing out that’s not the case. QF will have different figures in their production aircraft charts, given their lower payload and higher MTOW, just like SQ etc ultra long distance aircraft need to be premium heavy to justify the fuel load. QF have done the sums and it makes sense, assuming the market meets those expectations.

Agreed, that's why I said the graph and not your statement. Some members were taking it too literally.

 

[jase05]

Sure, but they can't go non-stop. That's the bet QF made on PER-LHR and it paid off, even more than they expected to the extent that they removed the MEL leg.

But that’s the thing. They don’t need to go non stop. Just be competitive on price and product and they will still have plenty of demand.
There is an option that suit everyone’s needs so it should be win/win for passengers

 

[justinbrett]

But that’s the thing. They don’t need to go non stop. Just be competitive on price and product and they will still have plenty of demand.
There is an option that suit everyone’s needs so it should be win/win for passengers

I have flown Southwest in the US because it was a direct flight, forgoing AA one stop, with Flagship lounge access.

People will make similar decisions on the ULH scale.

I think "a point of difference" might be a better term then "compete", they can compete on price and service quality but they can't compete on flight duration.

Nobody is saying QR/EK are dead once QF launches sunrise, even QF is retaining it's via SIN services. But it will be hard to pull away those customers drawn to the non stop service.

 

[RooFlyer]

If it works the reward is huge since the stopover carriers can't respond and it's not like European carriers are going to be rushing into the market.

The stopover carriers (do you mean the ME3, TK, SQ?) certainly can respond with a very attractive soft product and pricing, for a particular segment of the market that prefers a stopover or a transit, especially without the premium QF will be charging.

Personally, it isn't the length of the flight that determines my very long haul Vs stopover/transit choice and its not one or the other.

Very long haul Pacific
I did DFW-SYD last January because 1) it was part of an AY RTW and 2) Hawaii or Fiji simply don't appeal as stopover or transit points. I did do SCL-IPC-PPT-AKL once, but that's another story. And when I was shuttling across the Pacific for work, I used OW 'Circle Pacific' fare, where it was straight across to LAX-YYC and return YVR-NRT or -HKG (overnight) then onto home. More fun, and cheaper, including hotel, so client didn't mind.

Very long haul Europe
Singapore & Istanbul on the other hand I can spend a few days in anytime; ME ports less so, but OK and over-night certainly. Plus the carriers offer special fares to stop-over, so that works for me. The airports are mostly excellent for transits too, if needs be.

As for the Europeans, AY ad LH already offer great fares through to Europe originating their metal in Asia and using QF to connect through to those. They might sharpen that price/service and people can still earn QFF points .

I am sure Sunrise will succeed and be very profitable for Qantas carrying those businessmen and others who are OK paying a premium for saving 3-4 hours to London (only, CDG probably next). No advantage at all if the final destination is any other European port, so the continental European airlines, won't be too fussed at all as pax originating in Australia will still get there with 2 stops, (like Sunrise pax) and probably quicker.

Anyway, good choices coming up and long may it continue.

 

[RSD]

Sunrise will benefit too from the savings on not having Singapore landing fees, etc too.

 

[jase05]

I have flown Southwest in the US because it was a direct flight, forgoing AA one stop, with Flagship lounge access.

People will make similar decisions on the ULH scale.

I think "a point of difference" might be a better term then "compete", they can compete on price and service quality but they can't compete on flight duration.

Nobody is saying QR/EK are dead once QF launches sunrise, even QF is retaining it's via SIN services. But it will be hard to pull away those customers drawn to the non stop service.

For me I’ll always choose quality of product over flight time but that’s the beauty we are all different.
A lot of people are price conscious too which is why LCC’s exist.
I’ve always maintained that Sunrise will be a success but it just isn’t for me and many others

 

[markis10]

Sunrise will benefit too from the savings on not having Singapore landing fees, etc too.

Not a real impost all things considered, $4500 or so

 

[justinbrett]

No advantage at all if the final destination is any other European port, so the continental European airlines, won't be too fussed at all as pax originating in Australia will still get there with 2 stops, (like Sunrise pax) and probably quicker.

Where's the second stop? I'm confused. eg SYD-LHR-MUC is one stop.

 

[jase05]

Where's the second stop? I'm confused. eg SYD-LHR-MUC is one stop.

Yep, only 1 stop but if you are going to any other Euro port why would you fly QF Sunrise in the first place?
You are paying a premium for Sunrise and then getting on a rubbish Euro J flight when you could go on a superior EK, SQ,QR etc product that has wide bodies on both legs and probably far cheaper.

 

[moa999]

certainly can respond with a very attractive soft product and pricing, for a particular segment of the market that prefers a stopover o

Remember however.. 95% of SYD-LHR, MEL-LHR pax will still be flying with a stopover.
Qantas doesn't need to attract a huge number from other airlines to make it a success.. they have a point of difference that none of the many Middle Eastern or Asian carriers can match.

only reason I might not fly project sunrise is if the a350 is less comfortable than the a380 and it’s on the same route.

We've seen most of the seating already, and it's all a bit better than the A380.

https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/fleet/new-fleet/project-sunrise/business.html

 

[justinbrett]

Yep, only 1 stop but if you are going to any other Euro port why would you fly QF Sunrise in the first place?
You are paying a premium for Sunrise and then getting on a rubbish Euro J flight when you could go on a superior EK, SQ,QR etc product that has wide bodies on both legs and probably far cheaper.

I was just checking the maths... glad I'm not the only one.

I agree Sunrise will be mostly O/D to UK (similar to JFK - and really for QF it has always been that), but I assume QF will retain partnerships with EK, AF, KL, LH etc and of course its own service via SIN.

 

[dajop]

I'm probably the exception here, but if they timed it that it departed SYD at 9am and arrived in LHR at 8pm (AU winter) or 6pm (AU summer) that would be awesome. Wake up in Sydney, go to bed that night in London. Spend the flight working, napping and/or watching some content then arrive in LHR and go to bed,

But I suspect most would prefer to spend that time sleeping, ie a 7 or 9 pm departure and 6am arrival. Which works well as well - no need to haul yourself and your carry on off the plane to get back on the same (or another) plane an hour or two later. Just about when you were ready to fall asleep....

 

[jase05]

I was just checking the maths... glad I'm not the only one.

I agree Sunrise will be mostly O/D to UK (similar to JFK - and really for QF it has always been that), but I assume QF will retain partnerships with EK, AF, KL, LH etc and of course its own service via SIN.

Absolutely. If going from SYD/MEL to LHR it will be great and I agree that’s where their market should and will be focused. For those going to other domestic Australian ports or other European ports then there will still be plenty of better options

 

[justinbrett]

Absolutely. If going from SYD/MEL to LHR it will be great and I agree that’s where their market should and will be focused. For those going to other domestic Australian ports or other European ports then there will still be plenty of better options

That's pretty much how QF already is. If you're coming to London, fly QF. If you're going to the continent - here are our partners.

QF really doesn't codeshare on many BA Euro routes.

That said London is hugely popular as a destination for Aussies, for obvious reasons. I personally would find it rude flying to Europe and not popping in for a visit, regardless of how many times I've been.

 

[jase05]

That's pretty much how QF already is. If you're coming to London, fly QF. If you're going to the continent - here are our partners.

QF really doesn't codeshare on many BA Euro routes.

That said London is hugely popular as a destination for Aussies, for obvious reasons. I personally would find it rude flying to Europe and not popping in for a visit, regardless of how many times I've been.

Yeah, I’ve got worsens of rellies that live there and my name would be mud if I went to Europe without stopping by for at least a couple of days so even when we fly into somewhere else in Europe we always end up doing a quick detour to the UK

 

[elanshin]

Either way i think we're more or less all in agreement that QF knows what they're doing here and the expectation is that the route will be popular even if it isn't for everyone here.

I just hope we have some fun routes to play with when the first 350s are delivered and they're doing training/familiarisation routes so i can try it without going to LHR.

 

[Lucass]

Either way i think we're more or less all in agreement that QF knows what they're doing here and the expectation is that the route will be popular even if it isn't for everyone here.

I just hope we have some fun routes to play with when the first 350s are delivered and they're doing training/familiarisation routes so i can try it without going to LHR.

yeah, I think the CEO said they will initially do Trans Tasman flights

 

[Himeno]

I just hope we have some fun routes to play with when the first 350s are delivered and they're doing training/familiarisation routes so i can try it without going to LHR.

Send them to HND for a few weeks before going to LHR.

 

[MooTime]

Either way i think we're more or less all in agreement that QF knows what they're doing here and the expectation is that the route will be popular even if it isn't for everyone here.

I just hope we have some fun routes to play with when the first 350s are delivered and they're doing training/familiarisation routes so i can try it without going to LHR.

Yes QF know what they're doing, they've researched everything, but how many mistakes have they made in the past??

In sure every move they make they've researched and planned every angle, but no matter what they've ticked off, they certain to fail at times in the future.
Oh now tell me anyone and everyone can fail at times.

So saying they've done there homework & know what they're doing is a little nonsensical if not pointless.