Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[tdimdad]

Overcoming the technical limitations is simply a function of time, there is an inflection point in terms of aircraft speed and efficiency where ULR direct flights will have a transformative impact on major hubs. It is coming, it's just a matter of when.

This sounds like the good old A380 promo: between major hubs with efficient local feeders...

 

[Sabot]

This sounds like the good old A380 promo: between major hubs with efficient local feeders...

We need to keep the dream alive.

 

[SCM]

I'm not saying there won't be a market for direct flights, but you guys are nuts if you think that QF will ever out-compete ME3 or SQ.

Why on earth would I waste more money doing a direct flight when I can stop over at a hub, work, eat luxurious food and alcohol for free, and pay less money than I would otherwise (this is currently the case) ??

In my opinion, airlines need to offer a discount to fly direct - not the other way around, so it astounds me that currently this is not the case. There is no advantage to flying direct for professional workers who can easily work from an airport lounge, since you are getting free food, alcohol and other services, the equation is squarely in favour of a stop-over, since you are losing no time and are gaining a lot of free amenities.

I understand that some people don't care about the above - bot those people need to understand that many people don't care about flying direct, because it doesn't offer them any value. In fact I really hate spending a lot of time on a plane, even in J.

Add on top of this that Qantas planes are absolutely filthy and they never clean them, no matter how new their aircraft will be, they will resemble a garbage tip within a year - I really find the suggestion that Qantas won't have to compete with Qatar laughable.

ME3 entire strategy revolves around having the highest possible quality food, alcohol and service. If they need to have a free brothel in their lounge to attract people then they will do even that - they will not stop and they will never stand still, they will do absolutely everything necessary to out-complete trash-tier airlines like Qantas.

 

[Daver6]

I'm not saying there won't be a market for direct flights, but you guys are nuts if you think that QF will ever out-compete ME3 or SQ.

Why on earth would I waste more money doing a direct flight when I can stop over at a hub, work, eat luxurious food and alcohol for free, and pay less money than I would otherwise (this is currently the case) ??

In my opinion, airlines need to offer a discount to fly direct - not the other way around, so it astounds me that currently this is not the case. There is no advantage to flying direct for professional workers who can easily work from an airport lounge, since you are getting free food, alcohol and other services, the equation is squarely in favour of a stop-over, since you are losing no time and are gaining a lot of free amenities.

I understand that some people don't care about the above - bot those people need to understand that many people don't care about flying direct, because it doesn't offer them any value. In fact I really hate spending a lot of time on a plane, even in J.

Add on top of this that Qantas planes are absolutely filthy and they never clean them, no matter how new their aircraft will be, they will resemble a garbage tip within a year - I really find the suggestion that Qantas won't have to compete with Qatar laughable.

ME3 entire strategy revolves around having the highest possible quality food, alcohol and service. If they need to have a free brothel in their lounge to attract people then they will do even that - they will not stop and they will never stand still, they will do absolutely everything necessary to out-complete trash-tier airlines like Qantas.

You're making the assumption that every business travel has the same priorities as you here.

When travelling for work getting there on a direct flight is much more important to me. Eg, going to London from Perth, the direct flight is much more appealing than a flight that departs PER at ~11pm with a stopover in the ME. It means my sleep is interrupted and I arrive not nearly as fresh. Sure it's a better product and generally cheaper than the QF direct flight, but if travelling for work, my preference here is direct.

 

[SCM]

You're making the assumption that every business travel has the same priorities as you here.

I am not, I said in fact, specifically, that I understand that there are many people that would appreciate a direct route, however it seems at least within the confines of this thread, that at least some of them are oblivious to other points of view.

When travelling for work getting there on a direct flight is much more important to me. Eg, going to London from Perth, the direct flight is much more appealing than a flight that departs PER at ~11pm with a stopover in the ME. It means my sleep is interrupted and I arrive not nearly as fresh. Sure it's a better product and generally cheaper than the QF direct flight, but if travelling for work, my preference here is direct.

Maybe that's something specific to you, and that's fine. I myself prefer to leave earlier in the day and sleep on the last leg, but I usually fly with SQ, since that last leg is longer, so it tends to leave SQ around midnight, then dinner service, nice long sleep, and then breakfast service.

Of course to each their own, my only point is, it's silly to say QF won't have to compete with QR or something like that. Qantas will have literally one flight per day that's direct, that's not going to carry the masses, it will be a drop in the ocean of all flights going to Europe.

 

[elanshin]

I am not, I said in fact, specifically, that I understand that there are many people that would appreciate a direct route, however it seems at least within the confines of this thread, that at least some of them are oblivious to other points of view.



Maybe that's something specific to you, and that's fine. I myself prefer to leave earlier in the day and sleep on the last leg, but I usually fly with SQ, since that last leg is longer, so it tends to leave SQ around midnight, then dinner service, nice long sleep, and then breakfast service.

Of course to each their own, my only point is, it's silly to say QF won't have to compete with QR or something like that. Qantas will have literally one flight per day that's direct, that's not going to carry the masses, it will be a drop in the ocean of all flights going to Europe.

I think the easiest way to consider it is QF9 / QF10. Qantas would not be making this move (and adding PER - FCO / CDG ) if it's loads weren't above average.

They already have the data to prove that they can sustain the route so there has to be people that want to do it. I know people that don't mind transiting (I don't), but others very much hate planes and would rather just hop on one and hop off the other end.

For example, what happened on my last transit through SIN, I know my partners parents would be freaking out and stressing the whole time. Landed to a wonderful text that my flight was now 12h+ delayed. Personally i just looked at EF, found a multiple alternatives, asked to be moved and boom all done. They however would be freaking out and stressed as they're not frequent travellers and many don't want that potential stress.

There's going to be demand for both types of travel. So all in all having more options is not a bad thing even if its not for you.

 

[moa999]

that I understand that there are many people that would appreciate a direct route,

And Qantas only needs to get that small percentage of people to pay a premium, and they will be successful.

Meantime there are probably 20+ other airlines offering a one-stop to UK and most of Europe.

From the ME to Asia inc China, and even LCCs like AirAsiaX.

 

[jase05]

And Qantas only needs to get that small percentage of people to pay a premium, and they will be successful.

Meantime there are probably 20+ other airlines offering a one-stop to UK and most of Europe.

From the ME to Asia inc China, and even LCCs like AirAsiaX.

For business direct absolutely works and will be a winner but personally it probably won’t suit me as QF are probably going to have maybe 4-5 direct routes tops into Europe. LHR, CDG and maybe a couple of others so that still leaves a garbage Euro J class flight plus transiting through woeful CDG or LHR airports to everywhere else in Europe plus a 737 J connection from ADL to the East coast so for me it’s a two stop to most places in Europe.
Or I can one stop through Singapore or the ME and have a great stopover and get quality widebody J aircraft for both legs and at probably a far better price.
I do think the direct flights will be a roaring success even though it’s not for me

 

[Sabot]

I'm not saying there won't be a market for direct flights, but you guys are nuts if you think that QF will ever out-compete ME3 or SQ.

Why on earth would I waste more money doing a direct flight when I can stop over at a hub, work, eat luxurious food and alcohol for free, and pay less money than I would otherwise (this is currently the case) ??

In my opinion, airlines need to offer a discount to fly direct - not the other way around, so it astounds me that currently this is not the case. There is no advantage to flying direct for professional workers who can easily work from an airport lounge, since you are getting free food, alcohol and other services, the equation is squarely in favour of a stop-over, since you are losing no time and are gaining a lot of free amenities.

I understand that some people don't care about the above - bot those people need to understand that many people don't care about flying direct, because it doesn't offer them any value. In fact I really hate spending a lot of time on a plane, even in J.

Add on top of this that Qantas planes are absolutely filthy and they never clean them, no matter how new their aircraft will be, they will resemble a garbage tip within a year - I really find the suggestion that Qantas won't have to compete with Qatar laughable.

ME3 entire strategy revolves around having the highest possible quality food, alcohol and service. If they need to have a free brothel in their lounge to attract people then they will do even that - they will not stop and they will never stand still, they will do absolutely everything necessary to out-complete trash-tier airlines like Qantas.

At the end of the day mate, flying is transport. People like to wank on and on about the benefits of various frequent flyer programs but ultimately, unless you're flying private it's just public transport in the sky.

 

[JohnK]

I think the easiest way to consider it is QF9 / QF10. Qantas would not be making this move (and adding PER - FCO / CDG ) if it's loads weren't above average.

I struggle to understand what makes PER-LHR successful.

Isn't this flight 17h45m? So 4h30m or 5h flights from SYD/BNE/MEL then a short transit in PER and an awfully long flight in uncomfortable economy seats. What's the appeal? Price? Schedules?

Luckily we don't need to be in Europe but we do travel to SE Asia (or specifically Thailand) often and I used to love that QF had quite a few options via SE Asia that went to Europe. With the introduction of these routes I don't see Qantas passenger numbers increasing but rather most services to Europe going direct via PER or even direct from SYD/MEL.

What does this do for QF schedules to SE Asia? Replaced by A220s via DRW? Or even more JQ routes. This becomes very unappealing.

 

[DC3]

I struggle to understand what makes PER-LHR successful.

Isn't this flight 17h45m? So 4h30m or 5h flights from SYD/BNE/MEL then a short transit in PER and an awfully long flight ….

Not for everyone. Horses for courses I guess

 

[SYD]

For business direct absolutely works and will be a winner but personally it probably won’t suit me as QF are probably going to have maybe 4-5 direct routes tops into Europe. LHR, CDG and maybe a couple of others so that still leaves a garbage Euro J class flight plus transiting through woeful CDG or LHR airports to everywhere else in Europe plus a 737 J connection from ADL to the East coast so for me it’s a two stop to most places in Europe.

Which is why EK (QF code) still provides one stop from most Oz capital cities (maybe even from ADL again soon) to a truck load of Euro destination.

 

[justinbrett]

Anyone with a clue in the aviation industry will tell you that direct point to point routes are the new standard and will be priced at a premium over the legacy hub and spoke routes.

 

[SYD]

Anyone with a clue in the aviation industry will tell you that direct point to point routes are the new standard and will be priced at a premium over the legacy hub and spoke routes.

Not even particularly new. Transpacific used to be one or more bounces - mainly HNL until QF acquired 747SPs to do it non-stop.

You can still do it one stop via NAN or HNL but how many would consider that normal over non-stop?

 

[Cheatah]

PER/LHR sustained by a lot of corporate traffic in J (BHP, S32, RIO etc), will be interesting to see how the CDG flights shape up without the same amount of corporate premium traffic.

 

[RooFlyer]

Important Business and First travellers in a hurry to attend a meeting I can possibly understand (sort of being able to say you flew Concorde to New York for a meeting), but I fail to understand why economy travellers would pay a premium (and if its Qantas, it will be a steep premium) to save maybe 4-5 hours on a trip to London. Are they in such a hurry?

 

[encryptededdy]

Important Business and First travellers in a hurry to attend a meeting I can possibly understand (sort of being able to say you flew Concorde to New York for a meeting), but I fail to understand why economy travellers would pay a premium (and if its Qantas, it will be a steep premium) to save maybe 4-5 hours on a trip to London. Are they in such a hurry?

They're not in a hurry, they just hate transiting for one reason or another. I think that's the case for most people outside this forum. I know some people who find it incredibly stressful to transit, and so book incredibly long transits and would freak out if they missed their connection.

 

[stm1sydney]

direct point to point routes are the new standard and will be priced at a premium over the legacy hub and spoke routes.

They're not in a hurry, they just hate transiting for one reason or another.

But Australia is just not a big enough market and Qantas not a big enough airline to have lots of point to point routes. So a lot of pax will end up with two x transits with the first and third sectors on coughpy narrowbodies, as per @jase05 examples in his comment above.

Even if Sydney-based, I would not want to fly SYD-LHR and be forced to transit horrible LHR to get to Barcelona or Munich on a 737. I'd much prefer two comfy SQ widebodies via SIN with the great SQ service and a relaxing lounge visit and shower in Changi, at a lower price.

 

[Daver6]

I struggle to understand what makes PER-LHR successful.

Isn't this flight 17h45m? So 4h30m or 5h flights from SYD/BNE/MEL then a short transit in PER and an awfully long flight in uncomfortable economy seats. What's the appeal? Price? Schedules?

Luckily we don't need to be in Europe but we do travel to SE Asia (or specifically Thailand) often and I used to love that QF had quite a few options via SE Asia that went to Europe. With the introduction of these routes I don't see Qantas passenger numbers increasing but rather most services to Europe going direct via PER or even direct from SYD/MEL.

What does this do for QF schedules to SE Asia? Replaced by A220s via DRW? Or even more JQ routes. This becomes very unappealing.

You do realise people actually live in Perth? So for folks in Perth looking to get to London it's incredibly convenient. Suspect that's why it's so successful.

 

[jb747]

I struggle to understand what makes PER-LHR successful.

Isn't this flight 17h45m? So 4h30m or 5h flights from SYD/BNE/MEL then a short transit in PER and an awfully long flight in uncomfortable economy seats. What's the appeal? Price? Schedules?

It only works for people starting in WA. Adding east coast was simply smoke and mirrors. I'd much rather go via Singapore than Perth!

You do realise people actually live in Perth? So for folks in Perth looking to get to London it's incredibly convenient. Suspect that's why it's so successful.

And it should be quite successful using that passenger base. Sadly though, AJ sacrificed Melbourne to bolster the numbers.