Qantas’ 787s [range discussion]

[RichardMEL]

I do agree that QR probably wouldn't have played ball, but they didn't join OW until 30 October 2013. The initial announcement of their intention to join came after QF and EK announced their partnership. And IIRC QR were sponsored by BA who may have felt that QF had burned them with the EK tie up.

oh wow. I stand corrected. I had honestly thought they were in by then. Thank you!

 

[RichardMEL]

My point was, it is not unprecedented to do cross-alliance deals, so QF could do a deal with LH, and get feed from each other and codeshare on the non-stop route. One suspects though a PER-FRA route offers not a lot to LH compared to taking traffic to Asia on LH (or LX) metal and then routing on to SQ, QF, TG or CX to Australia. From FRA to SYD/MEL it's still two hops and from elsewhere three stops. But this might change if SYD/FRA were to become a reality, it might have a stronger appeal.'

My response to this is that an agreement on one or two routes is one thing, but QF would require so many routes to feed to/from at (say) FRA that would seriously pee off each other's other partners. Consider LH code to oz on TG and SQ (and NZ too I think) so I think there would be a bit of pushback from that side of things, and say QF did some deal with LH to offer 30 cities ex-FRA to its network I daresay that would cause conniptions all over the joint. Just can't see it happening.

I do understand the point absolutely, but there would be no point in, for example, QF flying to FRA with a LH code and maybe offering connections to even just major German cities fom there.. QF wouldn't get much out of it as opposed to what they would get with EK now or even BA currently, and LH wouldn't get much over their current arrangements with their own partners. I just can't see how it would work without upsetting the applecart or making real sense.

Like I noted earlier a point to point deal like AF SIN-CDG could work because at the time SIN was a foreign fortress hub(SQ) but QF offered the connections to/from SIN to make it work for both parties without upsetting other partners too much (as basically AF has no partners beyond SIN to offer feed). Very very different when tlaking about LH@FRA IMHO.

Separatrely I really wonder if PER-CDG will work for QF (as mooted) given the lack of onward connections and the potential demand for PER-France traffic.. still we'll see if/when they launch it.

just my thoughts... not gospel

 

[Himeno]

It did puzzle me at the time given QR was already a OW member and would have given QF a pretty big footprint and connecting opportunities(but not as big as EK at DXB).

My thoughts on why this didn't happen include the fact that QR's CEO Akbar Al Baker is notoriously hard nosed and probably would have rebuffed any QF overtures of this nature.. while QR has agreements with non OW carriers it's all about QR(even more than EK is about them) . The other thought I have is that back in 2012 or around when QF/EK first came to light (and they were obviously working on it for some time before announcement) the new DOH had not opened and there may well have been concerns about space and the like at the old terminals vs the recently opened DXB T3(I think it is?) giving more space there both for QF services(which were only 4x departures a day of course) and connecting ops via increased EK services.

I'm willing to be the main issue is that QR did not want to p;lay ball.

Though it also would have doubled the flights QR could have into Australia by codesharing on QF AU-DOH flights
At the time, QR could only have 14 flights to AU + extras to ports other then SYD/MEL/PER/BNE.
QR had MEL/PER-DOH. QF could have started SYD/BNE-DOH.

may have depended on 5th freedom rights out of DOH vs DXB.

 

[docjames]

A quick note on topic which I didn't see when scanning the thread, the Perth to London 787 runs with 10 seats empty to increase the range.

So with 10 people plus bags reduces the payload by about 1 tonne I would think.

That’s been speculated (similar to the DFW route) but never acknowedged publically by QF.

Is your info public / speculation / reliable / other?

 

[BAM1748]

That’s been speculated (similar to the DFW route) but never acknowedged publically by QF.

Is your info public / speculation / reliable / other?

Reliable.

 

[RichardMEL]

Wouldn't surprise me. QF can handle a 10 seat hit on a 789 and still make money on a route like that I would think. DFW I also believe similar, and again can take the hit to get the range.

This is not uncommon in the industy.

At one time, United had a bunch of "low density" 747-200's they flew on longer sectors (like then JFK-NRT) specifically to get the range. These a/c had larger F and J cabins and relatively flew Y cabins to fill, so they carried less weight. It was always a thrill to get a sub of one of these birds on other routes (aside I think they were ex-QF birds) - that's the other way of doing it.

 

[Isochronous]

CX are load-restricted on HKG-JFK and HKG-EWR where they use 777-300ERs and A359s, so not a surprise to hear this on PER-LHR

 

[Strategic Aviation]

QR was already a OW member and would have given QF a pretty big footprint and connecting opportunities

In 2017 QR serves the highest number of destinations of the three Gulf airlines, and it serves 49 destinations that Emirates does not. There are caveats on that of course, but it is a simplistic indication of how comparable a partner QR could have been hypothetically.

 

[moa999]

Reliable.

Some also what I would call reliable posters on airliners had said a 10-20 seat block for the first few weeks then nothing.

Could also be time of year dependent based on wind forecasts.

 

[davidj]

Separatrely I really wonder if PER-CDG will work for QF (as mooted) given the lack of onward connections and the potential demand for PER-France traffic.. still we'll see if/when they launch it.

Good luck with that. They might as well go for MAD or MXP.

Paris not the city of love it may have been long ago.

 

[BD1959]

Good luck with that. They might as well go for MAD or MXP.

Paris not the city of love it may have been long ago.

I was commuting regularly last year to CDG; a lot of Aussies evident on those CDG-DXB feeders - though only the bean-counters would know whether sufficient to make it viable as a CDG-PER feeder in to a QF Domestic/TT hub. Paris may not be the city of love it once was (though difficult to love when you're restricted to 4/7 (or whatever the restriction was) but it increasingly a city of euro ... French companies are increasingly global and La Defense a financial hub.

Regards,

BD

 

[RichardMEL]

Re QR - they have expanded at an incredible pace over the past 5ish years. I'm not surprised at the last year destination list.

Of course the ME3 all compete to be the "best" in one metric or another so it's a kind of endless cycle that will probably end in a massive puff as the bubble bursts.. a bit like the US majors but with far more bling and better product

re PER-CDG... at least with PER-LHR you have a big expat community in PER/WA of poms that drives some leisure traffic (note one QF advert specifically targeting the English-Perth VFR crowd) whereas there's none of that for France... added to that the lack of feed beyond Paris with the fact that anyone east of ADL would find it much of a muchness to go via Asia or ME to CDG I find it a potentially interesting choice.. though I do agree the route would not even be mooted as happening (still only rumours at this point of course) if the QF bean counters did not do their sums on the demand and yield they think they could extract from a route like this vs coding on EK via DXB. It is a route the 787 was designed to serve, but I bet QF would prefer the capacity of the 788 v the 789 in this instance, though of course it doesn't have the range to fly it even if QF had any. Which brings me to a separate but related thought for discussion...

... what of JQ? If QF sees such success with the 789, and JQ has operated the 788 for years, there could well be potential for JQ to acquire 789's, fit them in a higher density config and lower cost and price and make leisure routes potentially work? Comments welcome.

 

[Strategic Aviation]

A bit more on QR - Qatar Airways: How QR went from nothing to the world's best airline in 20 years - Traveller.com.au

In the past year alone, Qatar Airways (QR) has:
▪ added 11 new destinations to its international reach (including Canberra, Cardiff and a return to London Gatwick on May 22), surpassing the 150-destination milestone.
▪ placed an order with Boeing for 200 aircraft, worth $US20.2 billion.
▪ confirmed its deal with Airbus for 37 A350-1000s – the largest commitment by any airline for the new plane which will be one of the most fuel-efficient ever built.
▪ won its fourth Skytrax "Airline of the Year" award since 2010.
▪ won Skytrax's "Best Business Class Award", largely because of its Qsuite concept – fully enclosed "rooms in the sky" with seats that combine into double-beds in the middle aisle. (See gallery above)
▪ announced five more destinations: Lisbon, Tallinn, Malaga, Mykonos and Thessaloniki.

▪ His vision for QR's future is "growth, growth, growth".

On average, Qatar Airways takes delivery of a new plane every 10 days (though as Al Baker boasts, "In the past week", the airline has taken delivery of one A380, one A350 and a Boeing 777.)

The average age of the current 220 QR fleet is five years – and Al Baker's aim in ordering all these new planes is to bring the average age even lower.

 

[HockeyMonkey]

Although QF could do a direct agreement with a European airline, what we really need is a OW replacement for airberlin in Central Europe. Finnair and Iberia just don’t cut it for most business and holiday travel. Thinking French or German based however they are all tied up with other alliances.

 

[moa999]

If QF sees such success with the 789, and JQ has operated the 788 for years, there could well be potential for JQ to acquire 789's, fit them in a higher density config and lower cost

Not sure. JQ has chopped and changed 787 routes (eg the aborted SIN-AKL and China routes) whereas Scoot and AirAsia have continued to expand.
Plus I suspect with the current QF 789 order and then the 777/350 there isn't much Capex room left.

Id always been surprised that QF group (subject to the capital restrictions in 3K) hadn't at least tried to use 787s to fly north from SIN

 

[Isochronous]

Although QF could do a direct agreement with a European airline, what we really need is a OW replacement for airberlin in Central Europe. Finnair and Iberia just don’t cut it for most business and holiday travel. Thinking French or German based however they are all tied up with other alliances.

Bring back Malev!

 

[kitkatff]

just as an update as I'd posted about Finnair and HEL as alternative to LHR, had some recent experience: worked very well, the transit can be quite quick (on the way back I had 50 minutes between my CDG flight landing and the SIN flight taking off and both the luggage and I made it. No hassle with the passport control when changing zone. The "first" lounge is on the non-schengen side, i.e. where you land from SIN. The lounge dragon will try and tell you to go to the schengen side, which has no "firts" lounge, but you can insist to stay there, at least if WP / OWE I think. Showers were OK, food and bar decent though not above QF business lounge in AU. Looked like decent alcohol selection with local beers and spirits, but not so tempting at 7AM

Service on the flights was fine, the 350 is really less noisy than the 380, the J seats are like CX - maybe a bit narrower? I prefer 1-2-1 to QF's 380 2-2-2 in any case. The food service is "all on a tray" with what you order (I think you can get reindeer if you put a pre-order before flying?). The food was good, they have a special gin and tonic with local berries which is not bad.
Service is to the point, but as both SIN-HEL and HEL-SIN were night flights, I didn't want to stay up and chat anyway. And they provide slippers - which I then used on QF No PJs, but I'd brought my own (from Etihad, I thought I'd not rub it in with wearing QF branded PJs )

Downside:
- in CDG Finnair is in terminal 2D, meaning no access to the BA/QR lounges, just a generic small lounge. TVs were showing the world cup games so I didn't mind too much
- IFE is quite limited, some recent movies but if you fly a bit you'd have seen them, TV series with just 2-4 episodes, no music albums just "radios" with themes (blues, rock, etc). QF has improved a bit on that side with the TV series "boxsets", quite good to follow a series flight after flight.
- 4-5 hours wait in SIN to HEL, 3 on the way back. As the SIN-HEL flight leaves after the QF rush, if using the QF lounge the last couple of hours are quiet. And on HEL-SIN you arrive before the QF flights, so can quickly get a shower. Should try BA/EK lounges next time.

SC-wise, as I had a booking MEL-SIN-HEL-BRU-MAD I earned 360SC, more than MEL-SIN-LHR-MAD I think as HEL-BRU and BRU-MAD were 60 SCs each in J.
On the way back I got CDG-HEL-SIN-MEL, 300SC, same as BA for CDG-LHR then QF LHR-MEL on discount J I think? CDG-HEL is 60 SC, HEL-SIN-MEL is 240 SCs.

Overall good experience, would be worth looking at that routing for personal travel if not having to go to London, and/or wanting to visit Helsinki, with your own IFE though if taking day flights.

 

[OZDUCK]

just as an update as I'd posted about Finnair and HEL as alternative to LHR, had some recent experience: worked very well, the transit can be quite quick (on the way back I had 50 minutes between my CDG flight landing and the SIN flight taking off and both the luggage and I made it. No hassle with the passport control when changing zone. The "first" lounge is on the non-schengen side, i.e. where you land from SIN. The lounge dragon will try and tell you to go to the schengen side, which has no "firts" lounge, but you can insist to stay there, at least if WP / OWE I think. Showers were OK, food and bar decent though not above QF business lounge in AU. Looked like decent alcohol selection with local beers and spirits, but not so tempting at 7AM

Service on the flights was fine, the 350 is really less noisy than the 380, the J seats are like CX - maybe a bit narrower? I prefer 1-2-1 to QF's 380 2-2-2 in any case. The food service is "all on a tray" with what you order (I think you can get reindeer if you put a pre-order before flying?). The food was good, they have a special gin and tonic with local berries which is not bad.
Service is to the point, but as both SIN-HEL and HEL-SIN were night flights, I didn't want to stay up and chat anyway. And they provide slippers - which I then used on QF No PJs, but I'd brought my own (from Etihad, I thought I'd not rub it in with wearing QF branded PJs )

Downside:
- in CDG Finnair is in terminal 2D, meaning no access to the BA/QR lounges, just a generic small lounge. TVs were showing the world cup games so I didn't mind too much
- IFE is quite limited, some recent movies but if you fly a bit you'd have seen them, TV series with just 2-4 episodes, no music albums just "radios" with themes (blues, rock, etc). QF has improved a bit on that side with the TV series "boxsets", quite good to follow a series flight after flight.
- 4-5 hours wait in SIN to HEL, 3 on the way back. As the SIN-HEL flight leaves after the QF rush, if using the QF lounge the last couple of hours are quiet. And on HEL-SIN you arrive before the QF flights, so can quickly get a shower. Should try BA/EK lounges next time.

SC-wise, as I had a booking MEL-SIN-HEL-BRU-MAD I earned 360SC, more than MEL-SIN-LHR-MAD I think as HEL-BRU and BRU-MAD were 60 SCs each in J.
On the way back I got CDG-HEL-SIN-MEL, 300SC, same as BA for CDG-LHR then QF LHR-MEL on discount J I think? CDG-HEL is 60 SC, HEL-SIN-MEL is 240 SCs.

Overall good experience, would be worth looking at that routing for personal travel if not having to go to London, and/or wanting to visit Helsinki, with your own IFE though if taking day flights.

You can certainly pre-order Reindeer out of HEL - I did and it was very nice. I agree with you about the seats being similar to CX but a bit narrower - especially for the feet. Also agree about the limited IFE but the monitors were superb and the outside cameras were great. When we flew with them, last year, they were still having "quality control" problems with their seats on the A350 and many were being replaced/repaired under warranty. My seat had a lot of wobbles and the tray table was hard to use.

 

[Isochronous]

Finnair is a great option to Europe and excellent value for money. Glad you enjoyed it.