Project Sunrise: A350 or 777X? | Page 14 | Australian Frequent Flyer
Australian Frequent Flyer

Welcome to Australia's leading independent Frequent Flyer and Travel Resource since 1998!
Our site contains tons of information that will improve your travel experience.

Joining AFF is fast, simple & absolutely free - register now and take immediate advantage of these great BENEFITS.

Once registered, this box will disappear. And you will see fewer advertisements :)

Project Sunrise: A350 or 777X?

kelvedon

Established Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
1,081
Flights
My Map
VH ZNJ has arrived after its non stop LHR- SYD flight. Joyce and PM at Jetbase for the fanfare welcome9163DD50-298C-4AE4-A0D9-035DA0FD7BE4.jpeg
 

Quickstatus

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
7,704

justinbrett

Established Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
1,113
Qantas
Platinum
Flights
My Map
I’m not sure what “strong body clock” actually means but the persistent jet lag related fatigue may take a week or so to dissipate before a LH/ULH pilot actually feels “normal” again
When you work on shift work where you are constantly changing time zones, your body eventually gives up and your body’s urge to go to sleep and wake up are not set by a routine but more by other factors such as lighting (inc exposure to sunlight) and our immediate sleep routine. Ie, I don’t work shift work at the moment, I wake up at 0700 everyday and I find it hard to sleep in on weekends. That’s normal. When I was working shift work (where every day was different) I could sleep for 8-9 hours regardless of when I went to sleep. That’s why sleep experts say it’s important to go to sleep and wake up at the same time every day, including weekends.

I never said they don’t have jet lag or even feel normal, but it’s not as difficult as you’d think to snooze for a few hours.
 

justinbrett

Established Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
1,113
Qantas
Platinum
Flights
My Map
Spoken like someone who has no idea!

You may sleep on an aircraft, and yes, you may dream of just how much sleep you think you’d get in the crew rest. From which people may constantly be coming and going, and where, as Captain, you feel and hear every change that the aircraft makes. If I got an hour of actual sleep on most flights, I was lucky. And the planned crew rests will not be as good as the one in the 380!
Well, I am an aviation safety officer in my organisation and I’ve done a lot of study and courses on the subject of fatigue management.

I’m not saying crew rest is perfect but I was refuting that pilots would be awake for 24 hours.

But since apparently I have no idea, this is a good YouTube video for those unfamiliar with what crew rest areas actually involve.

 

p--and--t

Active Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
595
Qantas
Bronze
Virgin
Red
Well atleast he is honest about the “Non-stop tax” :p

Interesting comment about quantum for the "non-stop tax".

I could be wrong but it seems there isn't that dramatic a premium to use the PER-LHR-PER service.

Maybe the planned extra distance is reaching/exceeding a knee-point in the curve of costs to operate current aviation technology.
 

moa999

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
9,809
Flights
My Map
A poster on airliners.net calculated that it was probably only an extra $5000 in fuel for a direct service versus 1-stop on a 787, most likely partially offset by additional crew wages, and hotel costs.

However I think the big difference will be that you can't fly any freight which can make a bigger $ difference
 

jb747

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
8,610
Flights
My Map
Well, I am an aviation safety officer in my organisation and I’ve done a lot of study and courses on the subject of fatigue management.
And how many long haul operations have you flown, and how successful have you been at sleeping during those sectors?

I’m not saying crew rest is perfect but I was refuting that pilots would be awake for 24 hours.
It could actually be worse. As flights don’t start just after you get out of bed from a full sleep, it’s just as often that you start already tired. For some that works out, as they are better able to get some sleep early. But, others simply end up over tired, and achieve very little. People getting zero sleep on overnight flights is so common as to be close to the norm. And I’ve seen, and made, some pretty bad errors when as tired as most crew are at the end of long flights.

I expect the fatigue issues will be whitewashed by all of the organisations who want these flights though. They’ll do a ‘study’ and get the answer that they want.
 
Last edited:

jb747

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
8,610
Flights
My Map
When you work on shift work where you are constantly changing time zones, your body eventually gives up and your body’s urge to go to sleep and wake up are not set by a routine but more by other factors such as lighting (inc exposure to sunlight) and our immediate sleep routine. Ie, I don’t work shift work at the moment, I wake up at 0700 everyday and I find it hard to sleep in on weekends. That’s normal. When I was working shift work (where every day was different) I could sleep for 8-9 hours regardless of when I went to sleep. That’s why sleep experts say it’s important to go to sleep and wake up at the same time every day, including weekends.

I never said they don’t have jet lag or even feel normal, but it’s not as difficult as you’d think to snooze for a few hours.
That may be how it worked for you. When my body gives up I’m just permanently jet lagged. Sleep does not come any easier and it’s fitful. I’ve seen people fall asleep at fairly critical and busy times of flights, so perhaps something else that is lost is the ability to actually stay awake for the important bits. Having the FO doze off mid ILS is disconcerting, but perhaps not all that surprising.
 

docjames

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
8,690
Flights
My Map
With the delays to the 777-8, one wonders if Boeing will now need to offer the 777-9 with ultra low density config (ie. similar number or less than the -8 seats) with Boeing down the track or the upfront discount to cover the cost to revert the 777-9 to a density more akin to the current 787-9 config once the 777-8 arrives. With the 777-9 to be the A380 replacement in due course......
 

moa999

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
9,809
Flights
My Map
I think that's the trade-off. 777-9 is definitely a better match for A380 replacement, but that's probably not for 10 years and will chew more fuel in the meantime. And still no guarantee that Boeing produces the -8 at all with only two other customers.

Whereas with Airbus QF could get the 350-1000 now, and then swap to 1000neo with 1000s replacing 333s and possibly 1100/2000 for A380 replacement.
 

moa999

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
9,809
Flights
My Map
As for jb747s comments on pilots rest, i wonder whether pilots need to have greater monitoring of sleep and alertness (much like a dead man switch of a train driver).

Some people can better cope with shift work and broken sleep in average places, whereas other need 10hrs in a quiet dark room, whether it's age, stress, genes etc
 

Sabot

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2019
Messages
35
Qantas were looking into BNE to DFW direct a while ago, what happened there?

I am a pitiful economy only type operator for work and I think if you can handle BNE -> SYD -> DFW in economy a few extra hours to fly direct isn't going to matter much.
 

juddles

Established Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
4,712
Qantas
Platinum 1
Flights
My Map
...... When my body gives up I’m just permanently jet lagged. Sleep does not come any easier and it’s fitful. ....
I agree completely with this. Having done both shift-work and also extensive international rotations, my experience is exactly what jb747 says - sleep is not sound. IMHO there is nothing worse than being absolutely buggerred, but you body will still only stay asleep a few hours...

My concern in these disrupted sleep environments isn't so much that a pilot will fall asleep - it is that even though they are awake, their faculties are degraded.

I am all for the ultra-long haul flights, but this aspect needs to be very closely looked at. A cosy bed is worthless if your body simply refuses to rest.
 

jetset

Intern
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
62
I think that's the trade-off. 777-9 is definitely a better match for A380 replacement, but that's probably not for 10 years and will chew more fuel in the meantime. And still no guarantee that Boeing produces the -8 at all with only two other customers.

Whereas with Airbus QF could get the 350-1000 now, and then swap to 1000neo with 1000s replacing 333s and possibly 1100/2000 for A380 replacement.
Indeed, with Boeing having halted development on the 777-8, and the 777-9 yet to fly, one wonders if the 777-8 would be developed at all. Certainly not within the Project Sunrise time frame.

This sits in contrast to the A350-1000 that Airbus has put forward for the project. It is flying revenue flights right now.
 

docjames

Senior Member
AFF Supporter
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
8,690
Flights
My Map
The 777-9 would need a very low density config, allowing all the “wow” stuff QF have been promoting (economy stretching areas etc). So by going with that early, get the PR from the ULD config whilst awaiting the -8, before a product “enhancement” for the -9 once the -8’s arrive (and everyone’s forgotten about sunrise).

So would work well for the QF spin machine.......
 

AFF on Air Podcast

  • British Airways Executive Club – AIR025
    Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:53:26 AEDT
      Many Australians join Qantas Frequent Flyer by default. But even if you fly with Qantas regularly, you could benefit by using the British Airways Executive Club frequent f ...
  • Married Segments & More – AIR024
    Sat, 16 Nov 2019 04:32:20 AEDT
      Airlines seem to love married segments, but for frequent flyers and travel agents they can be extremely frustrating. Sometimes you'll find an award seat on a flight you w ...
  • HARS (Historic Aircraft Restoration Society) – AIR023
    Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:24:03 AEDT
      The Historic Aircraft Restoration Society (HARS) boasts a collection of over 60 aircraft, including a retired Qantas 747, Super Constellation and DC-3s. John Travolta's Bo ...
  • “Hidden City” Court Case – AIR022
    Sat, 19 Oct 2019 09:30:46 AEDT
      Earlier this year, German airline Lufthansa tried to sue a passenger that exploited the loophole of hidden-city ticketing by skipping the last flight on their ticket. This ...
  • Summer in Europe – AIR021
    Sat, 05 Oct 2019 17:28:53 AEST
      Qantas and Virgin Australia are fighting over two rare and lucrative new landing slots for Tokyo's Haneda Airport. Meanwhile, four European airlines have gone bankrupt in ...

Community Statistics

Threads
83,917
Messages
1,953,088
Members
51,375
Latest member
Fortheloveofflying
Top