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Project Sunrise: A350 or 777X?

Doctore1003

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Reuters is reporting that Boeing engineers have frozen development work on the ultra-long-range version of the 777X, which is in the running for Qantas' Project Sunrise (direct London/NYC flights) along with Airbus' A350-1000ULR.

Apparently Boeing's final proposal to Qantas included a “compelling option” to help deal with this delay, whatever that means.

Sounds like Airbus may have the edge!

 

juddles

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I had always bet on Boeing as the Airbus is too small. But this may change things.....
 

docjames

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Remains fascinating to see how this plays out. First-mover advantage important to QF and time without competitors with similar also important. A (small) risk that they chose the 777, then another airline picks up the 350 and gets there first.
 

SeatBackForward

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Reuters is reporting that Boeing engineers have frozen development work on the ultra-long-range version of the 777X, which is in the running for Qantas' Project Sunrise (direct London/NYC flights) along with Airbus' A350-1000ULR.

Apparently Boeing's final proposal to Qantas included a “compelling option” to help deal with this delay, whatever that means.

Sounds like Airbus may have the edge!

Compelling Option? alternative aircraft modified to suit? Maybe some spare A380's with racing stripes?
 

Saab34

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Reports around on google news that Airbus are about to announce the long range A350-1000. QF is probably 1-2 months now from announcing so both fits well.

I’d imagine a A350 order would give them some flexibility in regards to that very high A320 order they have (ie pushing out longer). They also announced recently an extra ten A321s so they are active in the Airbus space it seem at the moment. Have not had any Boeing recent orders.
 

moa999

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Suggestions on airliners where that other customers are also interested,

But also that it would be announced Dubai Air show (17-22 Nov) so still plenty of time.

Whether others would use it for such a long route (requiring more premium and no cargo is another matter) but it might be more attractive to some than the base 350-1000 in typical config.
 

mflyer100

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Think it will be interesting to see, I've long thought they'd go with the A350-1000 ULR but if Boeing can sweeten the deal maybe it'll push the 777x over the line.

I made a potential design of what the seatmap could look like on the A350-1000 ULR - goes without saying forgive me bad photoshop skills. ;) I used available info on the A350-1000 for measurements (assuming there wont be any major changes).

This layout would have around 65% of space in a premium seating, 12 in F, 42 in J, 38 in Y+ and 163 in Y, for a total capacity of 255 pax. Assuming the seats would use similar pitches to today's seats, 79 inches in F, 45-46 inches in J, 40 inches in Y+ and 32 inches in Y.

I think they'd probably go for a similar premium heavy layout considering it will mainly be targeting business passengers but they could also make some changes, e.g 9 in F, 42 in J, 28 in Y+ and 193 in Y (272 pax total).

A350 ULR TEMPLATE.jpg
 

Saab34

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Alan is on the record stating he wants at least 300 seats. More Y and less F.
 

Himeno

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Qantas is on record as stating they want 300 pax over 4 classes and a full cargo load to make the SYD-LHR and MEL-JFK routes non stop.
The A350 doesn't have that.

The 777X is meant to have a duel flight deck rating with the 787, meaning that 787 flight crew would also be able to fly the 777X. Which means QF wouldn't need to maintain different crew groups for both 787 and 777.
 

Saab34

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Qantas is on record as stating they want 300 pax over 4 classes and a full cargo load to make the SYD-LHR and MEL-JFK routes non stop.
The A350 doesn't have that.
The 350 is about to...

I’m not sure about dual 787/777 operations and that might be very hard to get the pilots onboard with. Etihad do this.
 

MEL_Traveller

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Alan is on the record stating he wants at least 300 seats. More Y and less F.
I think that would be achievble with a slight bit of rejigging of mflyer100's excellent seat map.

The changes would be to make F 1-2-1 - which is standard on current A330/340 models for F, allowing generous suites.

If you maintained a cabin of 12F, this would then go from 4 rows to 3, with the sapce accommodating 2.5 rows of economy, or ~24 seats.

If you made the cabin smaller, just 8 seats in F, that would give you 5 extra rows of economy in total, or 45 seats, giving you the 300 required by QF. ,
 

dajop

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If you made the cabin smaller, just 8 seats in F, that would give you 5 extra rows of economy in total, or 45 seats, giving you the 300 required by QF. ,
Smaller F cabins seem to be the trend these days. As examples SQ has downsized their 777 F cabins from 8 to 4 and 380's from 12 to 6. CX only operate a 6 seat cabin on their 77W's. LH have 8 seats on their A380's and 747's.
 

moa999

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I think the 300 want was dropped some time ago.
Also agree that I'd expect F to drop in number, and possibly go with a new 1-1 product to give everyone a window with maybe 6/8 suites.
 

mflyer100

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Problem is if Qantas choose the A350 and go with 3 rows of F in 1-2-1, the space in the forward cabin only allows for one extra row of business class seats. Meaning they'd probably have to trim Y+ to 4-5 rows meaning a total pax of ~275.
 

juddles

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What I understand is that QF will make their decision towards the end of this year. I suspect they pretty much now have the choice made. But it is still impossible to predict which way they will go. Qantas are fairly cautious when it comes to massive hardware investment. So I feel that whatever Boeing has promised them would have to be spectacular. Because I really think that Project Sunrise is probably the real AJ legacy that he wishes to leave, and the years go by....

I have said before that I think Sunrise is brilliant - in that it is a concept that although not of great importance to most carriers, it could be just the thing that allows QF to continue operating as a true international airline and compete with those who have far more favorable geographical positions and cost bases. Australia is a smallish market that is so so isolated.

The airbus planes are not as big as AJ wanted, but his time pressure may sway him in this direction. But AJ is also a businessman, and I can also see QF extracting an absolute stellar deal from a weakened Boeing - even if it means a slight delay.
 

moa999

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If Boeing is ditching the 778 they don't have much to offer
 

juddles

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If Boeing is ditching the 778 they don't have much to offer
Boeing aren't ditching anything. Just their budget has a new crisis to overcome. The 777 is a better base frame for ultra long haul than the A350. Eventually both manufacturers will bring out new designs, as they always do. But today it is the mass sales of small short range aircraft that is their bread and butter.
 

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