New controversial work travel policy

[RooFlyer]

To help manage any negative commentary around people being asked to (potentially) pay a surcharge for their own room - which I think is probably reasonable in the circumstances - I assume it would be tax deductible for the individual? Might help dampen the negative responses.

At a high level (ignoring personal circumstances), I can't see it being tax deductable. The company is providing accommodation; its the person's choice that they want something else. Maybe they's prefer a 6 star hotel, rather than 5 star, etc. Like paying for a flight upgrade from company whY to J - not deductable in normal circumstances (although I'm sure that some will say they've done it ).

 

[Cynicor]

I’m not sure that’s accurate tax advice. In fact I’m pretty sure it’s completely incorrect but am happy to be shown I’m wrong

In the same way that meal allowances are paid but if you spend more you can deduct it, just because work pay for something doesn’t mean you have to lump it.

 

[MARTINE]

At a high level (ignoring personal circumstances), I can't see it being tax deductable. The company is providing accommodation; its the person's choice that they want something else. Maybe they's prefer a 6 star hotel, rather than 5 star, etc. Like paying for a flight upgrade from company whY to J - not deductable in normal circumstances (although I'm sure that some will say they've done it ).

I discussed this very issue with my accountant in a past corporate job. I was advised work related expenses are not fixed by ATO eg if you fly first to an overseas conference nothing stops you…..so when I was given a 5 and sixpence per diem for accommodation/food and I booked elsewhere the difference was tax deductible. The per diem was put in as income
Just my experience

 

[RooFlyer]

I’m not sure that’s accurate tax advice. In fact I’m pretty sure it’s completely incorrect but am happy to be shown I’m wrong

Apologies if you are referring to me - but it wasn't "tax advice", it was a personal opinion, couched I thought pretty generally ("high level" ... "I can't see" ...). But happy for better opinions to prevail.

 

[MARTINE]

And I would never agree to sharing
Boundaries are important to me
YMMV
In the early days I had worked in jobs where there was mixed gender sharing. Should never happen

 

[Cynicor]

No offence intended Rooflyer. But you definitely said that in your second paragraph some was not deductible and it wasn’t couched as opinion.
While it doesn’t pass the pub test, it’s completely legal for me to buy and deduct a 50k watch to take pulses despite a $2 one working just fine, in theory

 

[RooFlyer]

No offence intended Rooflyer. But you definitely said that in your second paragraph some was not deductible and it wasn’t couched as opinion.
While it doesn’t pass the pub test, it’s completely legal for me to buy and deduct a 50k watch to take pulses despite a $2 one working just fine, in theory

No offence taken (although I disagree with your characterisation) - obviously my height and sight aren't match fit!

But to draw it back towards relevance to the topic, which is a claim for work expenses in this circumstance, as queried by Must ...Fly, . In general, if work provides something - accommodation, flights etc, and it doesn't suit the individual because its shared, or not good enough etc, and I choose a more expensive option (better quality room, First Class flights etc), can I really claim the cost difference as a personal tax deduction? Not asking for "tax advice", just an opinion on a theoretical situation.

 

[LadyC]

Generally (whilst not free from doubt, disclaimer disclaimer) when considering the deductibility of an item, consideration should turn to whether the expense is work related (or there is an income earning nexus). The cost of the item is usually not an issue unless it is considered uncommercial (usually where the arrangement is not arm's length - eg. you pay me $100k to book a first class flight for you). Where employees have to supplement the cost of any hotel/flight/meal, it would be helpful for those employees to have a copy of their employer's travel policy or other written evidence, that outlines what is paid for/reimbursed by the employer, in case the ATO comes knocking and asks for evidence. Generally speaking and not tax advice of course.

 

[MARTINE]

No offence taken (although I disagree with your characterisation) - obviously my height and sight aren't match fit!

But to draw it back towards relevance to the topic, which is a claim for work expenses in this circumstance, as queried by Must ...Fly, . In general, if work provides something - accommodation, flights etc, and it doesn't suit the individual because its shared, or not good enough etc, and I choose a more expensive option (better quality room, First Class flights etc), can I really claim the cost difference as a personal tax deduction? Not asking for "tax advice", just an opinion on a theoretical situation.

In my experience, the per diem never really covered a decent safe space and food. It wasnt the upgrade from a 5 to 6* hotel. My accountant always phrases the ATO - can you prove it was money spent solely for the purposes of your job? A rolex watch may raise questions

My experience above related to me as an individual working for the company. When I had to attend those ‘love-ins’ all expenses paid (in later years) by the company I just accepted what was fully paid

 

[Gremlin]

I would remain factual. The conference is <<here>>, the travel policy is <<here>> and the accommodation arrangements are <shared twin rooms>. I would be very mindful of conveying any sentiment that can't actually be delivered. Don't suggest that attendees may be able to pay a single supplement, or another nearby hotel unless it has been confirmed 100% by the coordinators.

Someone also mentioned that non-attendance shouldn't have any detrimental effects. Whilst it's a nice sentiment, you can't possibly guarantee that someone won't be seen as 'not a team player' by someone higher up. Just one of the realities of a large organisation.

Collect and collate concerns, but you can't promise anything that more at this stage. If you do and you're overruled, it destroys trust between your team and you.

 

[Seat0B]

I discussed this very issue with my accountant in a past corporate job. I was advised work related expenses are not fixed by ATO eg if you fly first to an overseas conference nothing stops you…..so when I was given a 5 and sixpence per diem for accommodation/food and I booked elsewhere the difference was tax deductible. The per diem was put in as income
Just my experience

I've had the same advice from my accountant and have tax deducted the extra cost of paying to upgrade from Flexible Y to J on many domestic and international work trips over the years.

 

[Seat0B]

and I choose a more expensive option (better quality room, First Class flights etc), can I really claim the cost difference as a personal tax deduction? Not asking for "tax advice", just an opinion on a theoretical situation.

Yes, according to my accountant and my lived experience of doing this since 1996, you certainly can. The only suggestion my accountant offered was to be reasonable so as not to attract undue attention - so I have never claimed to upgrade to F, only to J. He also said (as I am a contractor) to have a company travel policy that sets out the entitlement of the employee (me) to J flights, travel and recovery time, and whatever meal and hotel standards, and then if a client or contract does not allow for that, it is a reasonable expense to pay for the company (my company) to comply with its travel policy. This is a good way to be sure that you can get deductions if you choose to arrive 1-2 days early for a work engagement - in order to be fresh and perform well, of course.

 

[dairyfloss]

not sure about current but likely so in Japan, but Olympic athletes have had to share rooms.

Olympic villages are also said to play host to some of the biggest hook-up parties on the planet. Might be a fun fact for the large MNC in question, here

IMO on the broader matter - absolutely not. I would rather dial-in for a week of sessions at odd hours of the day than to sleep and shower in the same room as a co-worker. We don't have a specific policy that I know of, and I recall some have made arrangements in the past to share 2/3 bed apartments for longer projects, but for a large event or meeting we'd be more likely to do a deal with a different property (4* vs 5*, perhaps) who could incorporate all the rooms at the right price, than to put this on our people.

Cheers,
Matt.

 

[jakeseven7]

Building on the logic @docjames has outlined.

What’s your company’s risk tolerance @jakeseven7 ?

While I’m sure your people are all wonderful, it would only take one thing to go wrong and the company could find itself dealing with a complex, time consuming and costly HR matter.

Not to mention potential adverse publicity.

Generally low risk, huge company, likes to appear perfectly in the world… which is why this decision surprises us too…

 

[jakeseven7]

@jakeseven7 I've lived this conundrum over the past 20 years working for MNCs

It gets better?

Just a general update for those who are following, so our regional HR is now being forced to contact our local HR to discuss. Our local HR is not happy with the plan. So will see what comes out of it.

But as discussed up thread HR is a toothless tiger these days unless it’s got a legal or regulatory angle - which they don’t….

 

[Cynicor]

Dunno, I reckon all sorts of legal issues could arise from this.

 

[jakeseven7]

Dunno, I reckon all sorts of legal issues could arise from this.

A part of me is hoping that it does

 

[robbo135]

In the early days I had worked in jobs where there was mixed gender sharing

Wow, HR would have a coronary at that prospect if that were to happen today !

I've had to share a room (same gender) when I was a gradling and attended a new starter conference. It was only for a night, but my roommate snored and it wasn't the best sleep I've ever had !

I've had colleagues who had to share rooms in extentuating circumstances where their flights home got cancelled and booking accommodation last minute was near impossible due to full occupancy, but that is understandable.

As others have said, unless it is a serviced apartment type arrangements with standalone rooms/bathrooms, I think it is a bit much to ask employees to be sharing rooms. I'm surprised HR/legal/risk signed off on it given the Pandora's box of issues that could happen with colleagues sharing rooms in what would classed as the 'work environment' given it is a company conference.

 

[MARTINE]

Wow, HR would have a coronary at that prospect if that were to happen today !

I've had to share a room (same gender) when I was a gradling and attended a new starter conference. It was only for a night, but my roommate snored and it wasn't the best sleep I've ever had !

I've had colleagues who had to share rooms in extentuating circumstances where their flights home got cancelled and booking accommodation last minute was near impossible due to full occupancy, but that is understandable.

As others have said, unless it is a serviced apartment type arrangements with standalone rooms/bathrooms, I think it is a bit much to ask employees to be sharing rooms. I'm surprised HR/legal/risk signed off on it given the Pandora's box of issues that could happen with colleagues sharing rooms in what would classed as the 'work environment' given it is a company conference.

Agree
It was the 80’s

 

[Duffa]

Due to a mighty stuff up i had to share a queen bed for a week overseas with a female colleague (who was a flatmate back home, so we were used to seeing each other in our PJs)
Nothing happened.
I did my "ablutions" in the hotel lobby men's room and showered in our room.
This was almost 40 years ago.
Probably wouldn't happen now