NC headphones restrictions

[MEL_Traveller]

I agree, we should ban anything that has a potential hazard, no matter how trivial.

Actually I'd prefer to put my trust with casa, atsb or the aviation safety advisors at QF. If it were actually dangerous it would already be banned, it's not like NC headphones are new either.

If there is documentation supporting the fact that NC headphones are dangerous, I'd be happy to support these kinds of policies. It's a slippery slope allowing anyone with any type of authority to make up rules on the go.

I'm not sure it's notice cancelling headphones per se, but all headphones. If you are concentrating on your IFE, it must be that you aren't focussed on whether a member of cabin crew is issuing a 'brace' command.

unfortunately this is probably one of those sitatuions where it will take an accident (where this is a material matter) to change the current allowed use of IFE.

 

[Mark3000]

So should we ban conversations in case someone misses a brace command??
Should we ban deaf people?
Should we ban sleeping?
How about non English speaking passengers who don't know what brace means?

We should ban good books too, because if someone was engrossed in a novel they may miss the brace command !

Meditation too will be banned, we can't have anyone relaxing and meditating in case they miss a brace command!
This really is ridiculous for such a trivial issue

 

[NM]

Like somebody else wrote earlier? facts are facts ANR are good at cutting out low frequencies © and since there is not much voice information in the lower frequencies we get a better boost and intelligibility and actually hear things better in the voice spectrum range.

My NC headphones attenuate 22.9dB at 100Hz according to my measurements. But as you point out, that is about their most effective cancellation frequency point (which is why I used that frequency for the test), and cancellation in the range of regular speech is considerably less.

 

[njba]

So should we ban conversations in case someone misses a brace command??
Should we ban deaf people?
Should we ban sleeping?
How about non English speaking passengers who don't know what brace means?

We should ban good books too, because if someone was engrossed in a novel they may miss the brace command !

Meditation too will be banned, we can't have anyone relaxing and meditating in case they miss a brace command!
This really is ridiculous for such a trivial issue

Ah but on The World's Safest Airline™ is any price too much to pay?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So should we ban conversations in case someone misses a brace command??
Should we ban deaf people?
Should we ban sleeping?
How about non English speaking passengers who don't know what brace means?

We should ban good books too, because if someone was engrossed in a novel they may miss the brace command !

Meditation too will be banned, we can't have anyone relaxing and meditating in case they miss a brace command!
This really is ridiculous for such a trivial issue

There is real concern that distraction due to mobile devices is endangering pedestrians on our roads. Not sure if there is a reason to discount that when it comes to safety on board an aircraft?

Spike in pedestrian accidents linked to mobile phone distraction

 

[Mark3000]

Well I think everyone will agree with you on that one, but clearly there is a massive difference between what we are talking about and walking across a road looking down at a screen instead of cars.

 

[Milefest]

Safety at all costs is an unreasonable proposition.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well I think everyone will agree with you on that one, but clearly there is a massive difference between what we are talking about and walking across a road looking down at a screen instead of cars.

I think that is the issue that needs to be explored/researched. If you are watching tv and listening to the soundtrack, will you (a) hear an emergency command and (b) react as quickly as a person who is not?

Cabin crew aren't sitting with headphones watching their ipads during critical stages of flight - why would passengers?

 

[marki]

I think that is the issue that needs to be explored/researched. If you are watching tv and listening to the soundtrack, will you (a) hear an emergency command and (b) react as quickly as a person who is not?

Cabin crew aren't sitting with headphones watching their ipads during critical stages of flight - why would passengers?

MEL_Traveller ...... Why be born ..... We are only destined © to die.

Look at the probabilities ..... Generally very safe ...... Mode of transport ..... Flying that is....However having earphones on or off. Watching IFE or not would have made no difference in any split second for Flights such as AF447 "
Entered high altitude stall, impacted ocean
SITE
Atlantic Ocean, near waypoint TASIL
PASSENGERS
216"

Or MH370 lost 227 passengers. 8 March 2014
Let's not exaggerate the likely usefulness of such commands.

Flight 1549 landing in the Hudson River. Chesley Sullenberge

 

[JohnPhelan]

MEL_Traveller ...... Why be born ..... We are only destined © to die.

Look at the probabilities ..... Generally very safe ...... Mode of transport ..... Flying that is....However having earphones on or off. Watching IFE or not would have made no difference in any split second for Flights such as AF447 "
Entered high altitude stall, impacted ocean
SITE
Atlantic Ocean, near waypoint TASIL
PASSENGERS
216"

Or MH370 lost 227 passengers. 8 March 2014
Let's not exaggerate the likely usefulness of such commands.

Flight 1549 landing in the Hudson River. Chesley Sullenberge

But then there's Asiana 214 in SFO, also 2014. There's no doubt that there are times when no command will save people. But then there are times when a command will ..... if only the passengers can hear it .....

 

[JohnPhelan]

Surely it would be far worse for someone to be asleep than wearing NC headphones. In which case, by their logic thy should wake everyone up and prevent people from sleeping during takeoff.

Yes, they should. In fact, I think it probably is. It just needs to be properly enforced.

 

[marki]

Why the fretting over such small odds ? Same as winning lotto ?

Yes there is a chance but very small chance infinitesimally small.

You have heard it before the drive over to the airport will get you killed quicker then any flight statistically speaking.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why the fretting over such small odds ? Same as winning lotto ?

Yes there is a chance but very small chance infinitesimally small.

You have heard it before the drive over to the airport will get you killed quicker then any flight statistically speaking.

There's no 'fretting' - it's a small measure which contributes to overall safety.

Aviation is incredibly safe because of all the safety measures. Otherwise we'd lump slides, seat belts, rules about staying seated until the aircraft comes to a complete stop (etc) in the same basket.

 

[marki]

But then there's Asiana 214 in SFO, also 2014. There's no doubt that there are times when no command will save people. But then there are times when a command will ..... if only the passengers can hear it .....

The three deaths were due to being thrown out of the aircraft when it broke up after hitting the Seawall. One was still alive and could of survived had she not been covered in foam then runover by a fire truck causing death due to blunt trauma.

I fail to see how NC headphones would have hindered her safety or for that matter a brief second of inattention for the word brace.

 

[Milefest]

Aviation is incredibly safe because of all the safety measures.

We're not saying it isn't. If you want every safety measure feasible on an aircraft, say bye to J/F, food service, toilets, drinks and everything else you enjoy about flying.

Otherwise we'd lump slides, seat belts, rules about staying seated until the aircraft comes to a complete stop (etc) in the same basket.

The examples you provide have a low to no inconvenience cost for the pax. Where as NC headphones would reasonably disrupt the pax flight while providing almost no beneficial outcome for an event that rarely occurs.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The three deaths were due to being thrown out of the aircraft when it broke up after hitting the Seawall. One was still alive and could of survived had she not been covered in foam then runover by a fire truck causing death due to blunt trauma.

I fail to see how NC headphones would have hindered her safety or for that matter a brief second of inattention for the word brace.

equally you don't know it didn't.

had cabin crew issued a brace command, had passengers reacted, there may have been fewer injuries. I'm not sure if there was any discussion in the accident report on this?

 

[ICUDr]

In my case during take off and landing I have my NC headphones on with no music or other sounds being played. I do it because I can hear the pilot's announcements better with them on. (perhaps all the clever people here might have an explanation for this?)

It has been argued here that with the NC headphones on and in the event of an emergency we wouldn't be able to hear the orders to brace or any other emergency instructions a loud, which makes sense.

However in such situation I'd expect that if we need to brace then:
The cabin crew would be rushing to seat down and fasten their seatbelts and the pilot will order via loudspeakers to take the brace position or any other emergency announcement.
If there was such situation and we were awake I think we'd be able to read other people's body language and see the desperation and the "we are going to die" expression in the face of anyone around us.

I think this argument is therefore a bit thin and it'll be the same as ban people from falling sleep during take off and landing

 

[MEL_Traveller]

However in such situation I'd expect that if we need to brace then:
The cabin crew would be rushing to seat down and fasten their seatbelts and the pilot will order via loudspeakers to take the brace position or any other emergency announcement.
If there was such situation and we were awake I think we'd be able to read other people's body language and see the desperation and the "we are going to die" expression in the face of anyone around us.

I think this argument is therefore a bit thin and it'll be the same as ban people from falling sleep during take off and landing

What you describe is correct for a 'planned' emergency, where the crew have time to prepare the cabin for an expected event or impact.

The situation I am talking about is the 'unplanned' emergency. Where a change in conditions may alert crew to issue a 'brace' command instantaneously. An example of this may be where there's a tail strike, or wing strike... something the crew notice and act on immediately. This is would be particularly important in the critical phases of flight... taxi, take off and landing. Crew would be strapped in to their seats, not rushing around the aircraft.

In these situations there won't be time for them to reach behind them, pick up the phone, depress the button, then issue the command. They'll yell it out instantly.

 

[Milefest]

What you describe is correct for a 'planned' emergency, where the crew have time to prepare the cabin for an expected event or impact.

The situation I am talking about is the 'unplanned' emergency. Where a change in conditions may alert crew to issue a 'brace' command instantaneously. An example of this may be where there's a tail strike, or wing strike... something the crew notice and act on immediately. This is would be particularly important in the critical phases of flight... taxi, take off and landing. Crew would be strapped in to their seats, not rushing around the aircraft.

In these situations there won't be time for them to reach behind them, pick up the phone, depress the button, then issue the command. They'll yell it out instantly.

If a tail/wing strike occurred you'd notice regardless of wearing headphones. And even if you do assume that, are you saying IFE should be disabled throughout the whole landing/take off in case a situation like this occurs?

You're blowing this way out of proportion

 

[marki]

In my case during take off and landing I have my NC headphones on with no music or other sounds being played. I do it because I can hear the pilot's announcements better with them on. (perhaps all the clever people here might have an explanation for this?)

Hi ICUDr look further up the list you will find a nice graph posted explaining why we hear things better with (NC) ANR on !!
This person was very kind (sic!)