MH122 diverted back to SYD due to security incident

[RooFlyer]

From another report:

Sounds very distressing - source of the second hand report would be good.

The guy threatened to blow the plane up, this isn't your average drunk Bali pax.

My ref to drunk Bali pax was pretty obviously referencing the video you mentioned, not any b-threat which came out later (from what I saw). Keep things in perspective.

I just find it very strange, especially if a b-threat was made, how later everyone was just standing round chatting, and that lady smiling close by with a kid. Shows the cabin crew had de-escalated things nicely, but still ....

# Can someone say how time stamps on X videos work? Presumably the time of posting, but would that time reflect the time on the persons phone, or the local X server (however that works).

 

[Melburnian1]

I'm not sure any of those tweets were made in the air, so I think information would have been limited until the aircraft landed.

I have been on the receiving end of a radio call that required me to call AFP on behalf of the aircraft (much less serious than this one, but still requiring AFP). There's a lot of factors at play and a lot of limitations (you generally don't talk about this stuff over unsecure radio that every plane spotter can listen to). They obviously thought the threat was more than just a regular disruptive pax - otherwise they would have just gone straight to the gate.

I wouldn't be making judgements from a couple of tweets and some rushed news reports.

NSW Police was apparently the lead agency, not the AFP, in yesterday's occurrence.

I read somewhere yesterday it was known the person did NOT have anything of concern in his backpack well before police boarded and arrested him. I don't know if this explains RooFlyer's point about some passengers and crew looking 'relaxed' as per that X/Twitter shot that has an MH female cabin crew member on the right hand side.

This morning, the NSW Police Commissioner Mrs Webb is copping a lot of flak for what passengers and others suggest was the extremely slow response. 'The Daily Telegraph' summary reads:

‘Where the hell are the police?’: Fury at cops amid plane drama​

Passengers on-board Malaysia Airlines flight MH122 were left frustrated after it took police hours to remove a man who caused the plane to return to Sydney after he became unruly mid-flight.

 

[Ade]

Go out the window when your actions close 16R/34L at YSSY!

hmmm ... agree with you in principle ... but the reality is you don't want to agitate (antagonise, is that the word?), irritate, aggrevate the person who is causing already trouble. Just let them go on wit their routine until help arrives.

 

[justinbrett]

Sounds very distressing - source of the second hand report would be good.



My ref to drunk Bali pax was pretty obviously referencing the video you mentioned, not any b-threat which came out later (from what I saw). Keep things in perspective.

I just find it very strange, especially if a b-threat was made, how later everyone was just standing round chatting, and that lady smiling close by with a kid. Shows the cabin crew had de-escalated things nicely, but still ....

# Can someone say how time stamps on X videos work? Presumably the time of posting, but would that time reflect the time on the persons phone, or the local X server (however that works).

It’s obvious you were posting based off very limited information. I was aware of the bomb threat prior to you posting that. The video of people “smiling” is but a small snapshot, and posts by that same user put it in a different context to how you are taking it.

I’ll leave it there.

NSW Police was apparently the lead agency, not the AFP, in yesterday's occurrence.

I read somewhere yesterday it was known the person did NOT have anything of concern in his backpack well before police boarded and arrested him. I don't know if this explains RooFlyer's point about some passengers and crew looking 'relaxed' as per that X/Twitter shot that has an MH female cabin crew member on the right hand side.

This morning, the NSW Police Commissioner Mrs Webb is copping a lot of flak for what passengers and others suggest was the extremely slow response. 'The Daily Telegraph' summary reads:

‘Where the hell are the police?’: Fury at cops amid plane drama​

Passengers on-board Malaysia Airlines flight MH122 were left frustrated after it took police hours to remove a man who caused the plane to return to Sydney after he became unruly mid-flight.

Response:

“We were notified at about 4.15pm yesterday and it was resolved at about 6.15pm. Given it’s a volatile situation, and unpredictable, we didn’t know the severity of the incident. You have to deal with what you learn about the passenger — we didn’t know if there was a bomb. AFP had to work through all those considerations.”

“I think three hours is pretty good. I know it’s pretty terrifying. The protocol in Australia is to negotiate. We don’t storm planes — this is not TV, it’s not the movies — and we want to protect the lives of all passengers.”

“And no doubt there’ll be a debrief, but we can never presume anything and you don’t know whether this person was acting alone or he actually had other support on the plane or outside the plane,” she said.

“We’re never complacent on these issues and we should never presume anything. We’re just lucky in Australia this happens so rarely but we should never be complacent to think it could never happen here.”

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/lucid-again-passenger-reveals-plane-ranters-sudden-change/news-story/05a77372823fa7f4e0bbe4adcee7b51f

 

[NM]

I expect one of the reasons for the time taken to "resolve" the matter would have been the need to be absolutely certain that the disruptive passenger was acting alone and there were no other associated passengers observing actions and waiting for their opportunity to escalate.

When the immediate risk to passenger safety was identified as low, keeping them all together in one place (on the aircraft initially) I would expect to be preferred procedure until the authorities are certain there is only one "person of interest".

We have no idea how long it takes to come to this conclusion. In the mean time, abundant caution should prevail rather than haste to minimise disruption to airport operations or passenger inconvenience.

 

[Saab34]

Not always.

The Melbourne event didn’t happen quick, special ops team arrived 30 mins after engine shutdown, and they couldn’t find the correct firearms and armour, further delaying an arrival.
The Victorian Premier typically weaved their way out of that one. <mod edited>

<redacted>

I said Dan Andrews <redacted>, as he conducted the press conference, fielding questions from journalists, and just spun his words.

<redacted>

 

[RooFlyer]

It’s obvious you were posting based off very limited information. I was aware of the bomb threat prior to you posting that. The video of people “smiling” is but a small snapshot, and posts by that same user put it in a different context to how you are taking it.

Of course I was posting off limited information; still am. As are you (and us all) - unless you are an insider to the whole response, in which case I don't think (or hope) you'd be posting anything. Its the nature of a site like this that we discuss and speculate on incidents like this, as they unfold - you initiated the thread, after all.

And of course that video was a small snapshot - the drama went on for about 3 hours on the ground. The other posts by the same X user doesn't alter its context - it adds to it, temporally.

But small snapshot or not - how or why does a child get within a few strides of a guy who made b. threats and behaved aggressively towards other pax?

“We were notified at about 4.15pm yesterday and it was resolved at about 6.15pm. Given it’s a volatile situation, and unpredictable, we didn’t know the severity of the incident. You have to deal with what you learn about the passenger — we didn’t know if there was a bomb. AFP had to work through all those considerations.”

Curious - that quote was from NSW Police Commissioner Karen Webb from news.com.au. Notified about 4:15 pm - that's 30 mins after the plane landed and parked at the far taxi-way, after a bomb-threat on board, in flight, as far as I can tell. Um - so I wonder what was happening in the 90 mins or so from when the plane turned around to when NSW Police lead agency were notified? Or at least the 30 mins after it parked on the far taxi-way?

 

[justinbrett]

Of course I was posting off limited information; still am. As are you (and us all) - unless you are an insider to the whole response, in which case I don't think (or hope) you'd be posting anything. Its the nature of a site like this that we discuss and speculate on incidents like this, as they unfold - you initiated the thread, after all.

Well you said you don’t have a Twitter account and that is where the first hand reports were. All of the news reports at the time were just referencing them. The proper media interviews didn’t start surfacing until very late at night. You said you weren’t aware of the bomb threat but that was on Twitter hours before. As much as you were saying you weren’t making judgments it certainly sounded like you were, insinuating the whole thing was an overreaction.

I am not an insider on this occasion but I have been involved in a similar incident when I was in ATC so am aware of the processes.

Curious - that quote was from NSW Police Commissioner Karen Webb from news.com.au. Notified about 4:15 pm - that's 30 mins after the plane landed and parked at the far taxi-way, after a bomb-threat on board, in flight, as far as I can tell. Um - so I wonder what was happening in the 90 mins or so from when the plane turned around to when NSW Police lead agency were notified? Or at least the 30 mins after it parked on the far taxi-way?

I’ve already explained upthread why the time in the air would not have been that helpful to gather information due to limitations so I won’t repeat myself.

AFP does have jurisdiction, once it becomes a counter-terrorism op that then involves the state police. I assume it took those 28 minutes to gather the information and refer to the State Police.

 

[RooFlyer]

I’ve already explained upthread why the time in the air would not have been that helpful to gather information due to limitations so I won’t repeat myself.

You've also explained the use of 'code-words' which I've also read in the Ask The Pilot thread IIRC. I respect your experience in ATC but to me, not to be able, or not be prepared to convey that there has been a b threat in the air - or to convey to the ground a similar level of seriousness, one way or another, is unthinkable. I would hope there is some sort of convention where the pilot would declare mayday or pan, and when asked the nature of the emergency, some code is used. That of course is 'security' and I wouldn't expect anyone to confirm or deny. Just my hope.

But even if there was absolutely no idea on the ground before they landed, of a serious criminal act being perpetrated in the air, there is still the 30 mins from landing and coming to an almost immediate halt, till when the NSW police said they became aware of the possibility of a b being on board a plane full of passengers sitting at the end of a taxiway at Sydney airport. Gee, how much information beyond 'b threat made' needs to be gathered before the NSW cops are called?? Even if there was some doubt about 'terrorism', wouldn't you think they'd be notified about a developing situation?

I am normally "all the way with police & the authorities ...." but this sort of thing really puzzles me.

Not having a X account means I can view posts/videos reproduced, but I can't 'get into' the threads.

 

[justinbrett]

You've also explained the use of 'code-words' which I've also read in the Ask The Pilot thread IIRC. I respect your experience in ATC but to me, not to be able, or not be prepared to convey that there has been a b threat in the air - or to convey to the ground a similar level of seriousness, one way or another, is unthinkable. I would hope there is some sort of convention where the pilot would declare mayday or pan, and when asked the nature of the emergency, some code is used. That of course is 'security' and I wouldn't expect anyone to confirm or deny. Just my hope.

Yes there are ways. But:
a - the crew may not have thought the situation was as serious as it was until close to or after landing (pax reports today suggests this might be the case)
b - the pilots still have to fly the aircraft, and the FAs were pretty busy with the pax in question.
c - I would assume that the specific and sensitive information was going through company HQ in KL - who being an airline with terrible luck recently - have probably taken this ultra conservatively
d - I am sure ATC (and thus AFP) knew there was a security incident on board involving a disruptive pax. Is that enough to rule out the threat? Absolutely not.

But even if there was absolutely no idea on the ground before they landed, of a serious criminal act being perpetrated in the air, there is still the 30 mins from landing and coming to an almost immediate halt, till when the NSW police said they became aware of the possibility of a b being on board a plane full of passengers sitting at the end of a taxiway at Sydney airport. Gee, how much information beyond 'b threat made' needs to be gathered before the NSW cops are called?? Even if there was some doubt about 'terrorism', wouldn't you think they'd be notified about a developing situation?

AFP normally deal with disruptive pax incidents. They are not mall cops - they are a capable force specifically trained for aviation incidents. For whatever reason it took 28 minutes (though the NSW Police Commissioner said "about" 1615, so +/- 5 minutes I guess) to ascertain the threat required counter-terrorism units - and the minister did reference this in the 2GB interview, that the AFP were working through considerations to work out what they were dealing with. I do not know why it took that long, I don't know what other steps were taken. I don't know, and I'm not going to start criticising people when I don't all know the facts.

 

[justinbrett]

NSW Police was apparently the lead agency, not the AFP, in yesterday's occurrence.

That's not correct, not according to the NSW Police Minister (refer 1:20 in the interview below). The AFP was lead.

AFP have jurisdiction, but state police get involved when there is a counter-terrorism response required.

‘Not a movie’: Police boss explains DELAY handling plane incident

NSW Police Commissioner, Karen Webb has responded to criticisms of police delay in regard to the incident aboard a Malaysia Airlines flight. Photograph: 9News Hear more highlights from Ben Fordham Live in the playlist below and give us a follow on Apple Podcasts:

www.2gb.com

 

[jakeseven7]

I don't know, and I'm not going to start criticising people when I don't all know the facts.

Isn’t that a part of the sign up criteria on AFF?

 

[DC3]

“Never let the truth get in the way of a good story” - Mark Twain

 

[RooFlyer]

7:30 report on the incident tonight. Unfortunately didn't seem to add much to what has been reported previously, but all seemed impressed with MAS crew. NSW Police and AFP declined interviews on basis of "on-going investigation/court case" (can't recall exact wording) - in spite of NSW Police Commissioner previously giving interview to commercial radio.