Less room in Virgin's new 'cattle-class'

[jakeseven7]

VIRGIN Blue travellers may find flying in the back of the plane more of a knee-crunching experience if a proposal for a virtual low-cost airline goes ahead.

Less room in Virgin's new 'cattle-class' | Travel | News.com.au


This sounds.... terrifying . You wouldn't catch me in the second half of the plane... thats Tiger territory.

Interesting move although it does mean their capacity for standard economy could potentially halve.... Also interesting they have ruled out an ultra LCC now completely, Tiger has obviously destroyed that idea.


Also - a watch out for people flying DJ over Xmas, there is potential for strike action by the TWU... Negotiations are ongoing.
DOMESTIC passenger numbers fall | The Australian

 

[haydensydney]

*sigh* you won't find me down the back either...

...and here I was hoping that they would become a full service airline and give QF a run for their money

 

[brett-au]

Hmm, I still think the previous model was the better bet. In a 737-800 there were 3 blue zone rows and the rest were standard rows. The cost of a can of coke was similar to the cost from a vending machine on the ground and you could order a chocolate chip muffin for a snack. You could also listen to music in case you forgot to charge/bring your ipod.

Priority check-in has probably been my favourite improvement since then.

 

[anat0l]

How is this related to a tug-of-war with QF?

In any case, aren't Virgin's seat pitch more than QF anyway? So if they scale back a bit more, then they'd just be in line with QF anyway?

And if they are going to pitch things closer than that, then how much more could you possibly put seats together? I mean, I sat in row 11 of a DJ 738 once, and I was fine, but bring back about 1.5 inches and we might have a problem....

 

[pauly7]

VIRGIN Blue travellers may find flying in the back of the plane more of a knee-crunching experience if a proposal for a virtual low-cost airline goes ahead.

Less room in Virgin's new 'cattle-class' | Travel | News.com.au


This sounds.... terrifying . You wouldn't catch me in the second half of the plane... thats Tiger territory.

Interesting move although it does mean their capacity for standard economy could potentially halve.... Also interesting they have ruled out an ultra LCC now completely, Tiger has obviously destroyed that idea.


Also - a watch out for people flying DJ over Xmas, there is potential for strike action by the TWU... Negotiations are ongoing.
DOMESTIC passenger numbers fall | The Australian

From a personal perspective, another reason I wouldn't fly DJ.

But from a business perspective I find it an interesting, entirely unexpected move! (great for a case study!) They have worked so hard to shed the cramped, cheap and cheerful LCC image... not too successfully, but this will make that job even harder I would imagine. Ultra cramped down the back, standard up the front and middle row free in 'premium' standard economy... mmmmm

BG points out that people still percieve DJ's current pitch to be worse than QF (I think as result of the actual DJ single aisle only aircraft choice / decor material selection and darkness in the cabin - makes it feel more cramped / original positioning as a LCC has not helped), when it is about the same.

Adds up to alot of clarifying marketing to be done if they proceed with this! QF will have a field day muddying it as well I'm sure.

Another question I would pose; DJ are running their (domestic) planes at much the same capacity as QF... so perhaps they would keep their more premium routes like the golden triangle / 'cityflyer' routes as 100% 'standard' economy config aircraft?? I know DJ doesn't have a heap of corporates on the books, but I'd imagine on some popular flights 5pm Mel/Syd for example that % would be higher and having a 2-tiered aircraft on that flight would surely bump some corporates back to the 'knee crunching' seatas.... mmmm interesting!

 

[anat0l]

More interesting would be if such seats do take off (lets forget anything right now about whether this violates standards, ergonomics, OHS and other legal BS), would you be prepared to pay, say, 35%-70% of current cheapest fares for something like SYD-MEL (i.e. domestic flights of about 2 hrs or less)?

That is the carrot I'd imagine DJ would use.

 

[jakeseven7]

Another question I would pose; DJ are running their (domestic) planes at much the same capacity as QF... so perhaps they would keep their more premium routes like the golden triangle / 'cityflyer' routes as 100% 'standard' economy config aircraft?? I know DJ doesn't have a heap of corporates on the books, but I'd imagine on some popular flights 5pm Mel/Syd for example that % would be higher and having a 2-tiered aircraft on that flight would surely bump some corporates back to the 'knee crunching' seatas.... mmmm interesting!

I think this is a good point of consideration for them, they seem to be at crossroads in a decision making time regarding the strategic direction and positioning of the airline and have elected for both (we are 'new world LCC' up the front and 'ultra LCC' down the back!)

I rekn they would have to consider keeping a 1 class aircraft on the cityflyer routes/peak times... but I guess that depends on really how many corporates they are actually carrying these days... I'm guessing still not heaps... who knows.

More interesting would be if such seats do take off (lets forget anything right now about whether this violates standards, ergonomics, OHS and other legal BS), would you be prepared to pay, say, 35%-70% of current cheapest fares for something like SYD-MEL (i.e. domestic flights of about 2 hrs or less)?
That is the carrot I'd imagine DJ would use.

Mmmm I know the article cites 3% reduction in cost, probably means nothing at this stage - but do you think they would be able to discount that much more than their current lowest fare?

I rekn they might jack their 'standard' economy fares up somewhat, lower their 'knee crusher' economy fares down a bit to create a bit of a gap..... Then they could make some hay! But doing that would risk the 'standard' people moving across to QF.... This seems like more of an attack on Tiger and JQ rather than QF mainline brand... infact it seems like a gift to QF brand!

 

[codash1099]

Maybe they're thinking of this (shudder )

New airline design seats passengers face-to-face | Travel News | News.com.au

 

[Dave Noble]

Maybe they're thinking of this (shudder )

New airline design seats passengers face-to-face | Travel News | News.com.au

What's wrong with facing seats? On trains, facing seats are better than airline style seating and coaches that have it tend to be more pleasant too ime

Dave

 

[Dee Thom]

Brett Godfreys statement about extra LCC seats aft of the over wing escape windows is only a possibility at the moment. I think he is looking to the future with the aim of not starting off a LCC in the form of JQ, but at the sametime being able to compete as a LCC especially in the holiday market, that JQ and TT are doing so well in. If it happens, it is a better alternative to starting another seperate identity, and strategically could slot in to the leisure market...
Godfrey also stated at the same interview, that DJ would be purchasing between 30 and 50 new 737s at nice prices most likely from 2010 onward. " Many current 737s come off lease in a big way from 2012 onwards" he said
Interesting times ahead for DJ, with QF also looking at changing their F and J seating in the wake of the financial mess..........

Cheers Dee

 

[SeaWolf]

This isn't really a new idea though. Some airlines do this already. Air New Zealand has normal economy and 'Space+' on trans-tasman flights. United calls it 'Economy Plus' I think. I'm sure there's other airlines that do this as well, they're just the ones I can think of because I've flown in those cabins in the last few weeks. The sole difference between them and the rest of economy was the leg room (which is very nice to have). The only difference I can see here is that rather than giving extra legroom to Gold flyers, you'd give a discount to those with less legroom.

 

[anat0l]

This isn't really a new idea though. Some airlines do this already. Air New Zealand has normal economy and 'Space+' on trans-tasman flights. United calls it 'Economy Plus' I think. I'm sure there's other airlines that do this as well, they're just the ones I can think of because I've flown in those cabins in the last few weeks. The sole difference between them and the rest of economy was the leg room (which is very nice to have). The only difference I can see here is that rather than giving extra legroom to Gold flyers, you'd give a discount to those with less legroom.

Agreed that this is not a new concept, i.e. two "classes" of economy seating in the same cabin where the only difference is pitch.

What is new is the fact that the pitch of these new "lower (sub)class" seats could be smaller than the pitch already on the current Y seats. That's a bit scary.

On another note, however, perhaps this is a media beat up. Why would DJ consider seats with much smaller pitch than they are now? Other factors I hadn't thought about when I mentioned about whether it'd be legally possible are the design specs for the aircraft used, i.e. an aircraft is designed to lift a certain number of people and/or weight.

 

[SeaWolf]

On another note, however, perhaps this is a media beat up. Why would DJ consider seats with much smaller pitch than they are now?

IF they are actually considering this, I think it would most likely be for their 777 aircraft that are going to get used on shorter routes, like to Fiji and coughet, since those economy seats already have more seat pitch than you'd get on Pacific Blue I think. I agree that this probably one of those 'believe it when you see it' type of stories though, I'd heard the quote earlier on and hadn't read much into, certainly not as much as the author of this news piece has.

 

[drron]

This is not a new concept.I remember flying CX in the 70s,down the back of course,SIN-KUL-HKG.2 rows behind us there was a curtain.After landing in KUL several pax emerged from behind the curtain then several more boarded and went behind the curtain.Each was clutching a small brown paper bag.No FA went behind the curtain.Couldn't control my curiosity so got up and looked-they had bench seating and were crammed in.
My fear is that the cheapest fares currently available would be for these new cramped seats and to get standard economy would be the more expensive fares.Already DJ are pricing themselves out of my plans as they have cut the SYD-MCY flights down to 1 most days and so now virtually impossible to get the cheapest fares 2 months out.

 

[pauly7]

Also in the same presentation BG says within 5 years the 4 brand badging mess (Virgin, Pacific, Poly and V-Aus) will be cleaned up with one corporate identity! Now there's an idea...!

Could we see 'Virgin' departing.... all planes rebranded to V-Australia? Or will they negotiate/pay to have the restrictions on the use of the Virgin name outside Oz removed....

 

[NM]

What's wrong with facing seats? On trains, facing seats are better than airline style seating and coaches that have it tend to be more pleasant too ime

Facing seats can be an efficient use of the space so long as you don't want the seats to be able to recline. Now for some people, that may be a benefit, for others it would represent the sky falling.

 

[NM]

Note that on many Virgin Blue aircraft, the seat pitch is not the same throughout the aircraft. So its no possible to make a blanket statement about Virgin Blue having more seat pitch than Qantas. It all depends on which seats are being compared.

It is common that the Virgin Blue seats towards the front of the 737 aircraft have greater pitch than the regular Qantas 737 economy seats. This is partly due to the fact that the exit rows have to be at a fixed position in the aircraft (aligned with the emergency exit door/windows), and evenly spacing the rows forward of the exit row gives a slightly bigger pitch than the rows evenly spacing the rows behind the exit rows.

Qantas regular economy rows seem to be more consistent in pitch throughout the aircraft, as they can adjust the variation in the business class seats.

So score a seat in the front half of a Virgin Blue 737 and you will likely have more leg room than a seat behind the exit rows or an economy seat on a Qantas 737 (with the obvious exception of exit rows, row 4 on a QF 73H and the convertible seats on QF 734s.

 

[oz_mark]

So score a seat in the front half of a Virgin Blue 737 and you will likely have more leg room than a seat behind the exit rows or an economy seat on a Qantas 737 (with the obvious exception of exit rows, row 4 on a QF 73H and the convertible seats on QF 734s.

It is certainly my experience on DJ that the front rows have more leg room than the rows further down the back.

 

[codash1099]

Facing seats can be an efficient use of the space so long as you don't want the seats to be able to recline. Now for some people, that may be a benefit, for others it would represent the sky falling.

Take-offs and landings are also slightly different when comparing aircraft with trains and buses.

 

[Dee Thom]

Take-offs and landings are also slightly different when comparing aircraft with trains and buses.

The Boffins that study aircraft crashes have widly stated that rear facing seats are safer than front facing ones, in the event of a survivable crash...........

Cheers Dee