Is Velocity almost defunct for long-haul business class rewards?

[SomeRando]

I was looking for J to Europe end of May next year and had decent options both ways with SIA or Qatar from multiple destinations.

I hadn't taken much notice of redemption rates since SIA upped their rates last time but I noticed booking via Velocity was much cheaper points wise than transferring to Krisflyer miles for the same flight. One way Brisbane to Brussels was 158,500 Velocity points whereas SIA wants 141,000 Krisflyer miles (Saver rate) which works out at ~218,500 Velocity points if you're transferring them across to Krisflyer. Taxes are about $400 more with Velocity but 60,000 points is a pretty big difference.

*My maths may be way off though as I have been drinking

 

[Duffa]

"or its time to flee to Qantas after all these years?"
And join a program where you have to redeem for toasters !!
Unless you are Platinum.
Not for me

 

[anat0l]

I wonder whether you're looking at this the right way.

You lose about 35% of the number of points when you transfer from Velocity to KrisFlyer, but (and admittedly this is just my guesstimate) Velocity points are at least twice as easy to accumulate in Australia.

When you're looking at whether something is worthwhile in the points game, you need to look at it from the perspective both of how many points you need to redeem awards, and how easy it is to accumulate the points in the first place. From that perspective, transferring (relatively) easily-earned points from Velocity to KrisFlyer is a fantastic use of Velocity points.

Example: if I take up a credit card with a sign-up bonus of 80,000 Velocity points, I'm thinking that it's actually a sign-up bonus of 50,000 (ish) KrisFlyer points. And who wouldn't be happy with a credit card sign-up bonus of 50,000 KrisFlyer points?

To sweeten the deal, Krisflyer doesn't have Velocity's high carrier charges.

And to sweeten the deal even more, I can keep those points in Velocity for as long as I like and circumvent the KrisFlyer 3-year expiry.

This is definitely a point that I make myself. Qantas and Velocity points are amongst the easiest to earn if you live in Australia. Naturally for those with American Express, there's more flexibility and options (even if some of that value was recently lost). If you went for the HSBC Star Alliance card, then you have native Star Alliance earning power from the get-go if you want (plus the ability to earn Star Alliance status as well).

That said, the argument only works somewhat to a point (pun intended). Who wouldn't be happy with a credit card sign-up bonus of 50000 KrisFlyer points? Yeah, sure, anyone would... because there literally isn't another deal (let alone a better deal) out there. So if KrisFlyer is your game, then you'll take it. At one point, HSBC actually had such a sign up deal, but that was for 50 k KrisFlyer natively, no Velocity in-between required.

But you also highlighted something else you pay with the premium by banking into Velocity: the flexibility to keep it there rather than in KrisFlyer where everyone faces the immovable three year expiry on miles. Oh, and also the best inventory of SQ premium seats can be found on... well, SQ, not the partners. If your aspiration is SQ F or SQ R, no choice - you have to redeem with SQ.

Now let's look at some cases. EDIT: messed up. The cost of transferring from VA to SQ is 1.55 to 1, not 1.35 to 1.

Route and Class (one-way)	SQ KrisFlyer redemption (cost in KrisFlyer miles)	VA to SQ transfer, redeem on KrisFlyer (cost in Velocity points)	VA Velocity redemption (cost in Velocity points)
SQ Business SYD-SIN	72,000 (Saver) 103,500 (Advantage)	111,600 (Saver) 160,425 (Advantage)	74,000
SQ Business SIN-HKG	35,500 (Saver) 57,500 (Advantage)	55,025 (Saver) 89,125 (Advantage)	44,500
SQ Business SYD-HKG via SIN	77,000 (Saver) 106,000 (Advantage)	119,350 (Saver) 164,300 (Advantage)	89,500
SQ Business SIN-LHR	108,500 (Saver) 141,500 (Advantage)	168,175 (Saver) 219,325 (Advantage)	104,000
SQ Business SYD-LHR via SIN	141,000 (Saver) 181,500 (Advantage)	218,550 (Saver) 281,325 (Advantage)	158,500

I put the Advantage prices there as well as Saver, because admittedly on SQ we are all definitely not as lucky as everyone else to find Saver all the time to where we have to go.

The way I see it, let's say I only want to do SIN-LHR in J. That's an extra 60k points or so I need in VA to effect the redemption on KrisFlyer, if I can't find that seat by using Velocity. In my opinion, that's an extra amount that's not to be sneezed at. Also, that's if the redemption can be found in Saver. While it's arguable whether the extra points are comparable against dodging the Velocity carrier surcharges, it could also be the extra amount which shuts out someone from being able to make a redemption in the first place.

 

[serfty]

This is definitely a point that I make myself. Qantas and Velocity points are amongst the easiest to earn if you live in Australia. Naturally for those with American Express, there's more flexibility and options (even if some of that value was recently lost). If you went for the HSBC Star Alliance card, then you have native Star Alliance earning power from the get-go if you want (plus the ability to earn Star Alliance status as well).

That said, the argument only works somewhat to a point (pun intended). Who wouldn't be happy with a credit card sign-up bonus of 50000 KrisFlyer points? Yeah, sure, anyone would... because there literally isn't another deal (let alone a better deal) out there. So if KrisFlyer is your game, then you'll take it. At one point, HSBC actually had such a sign up deal, but that was for 50 k KrisFlyer natively, no Velocity in-between required.

But you also highlighted something else you pay with the 35% premium by banking into Velocity: the flexibility to keep it there rather than in KrisFlyer where everyone faces the immovable three year expiry on miles. Oh, and also the best inventory of SQ premium seats can be found on... well, SQ, not the partners. If your aspiration is SQ F or SQ R, no choice - you have to redeem with SQ.

Now let's look at some cases.

I have a recent one myself: a couple of years ago, I had to find any way to get back to Australia from Asia. This was during January, so from an award perspective, that was going to be tough as anything. About a week out from when I needed to fly, I was lucky to find SIN-CNS via SQ website. Even better, it was a J Saver. That's 72k KF miles now (forget what it cost then, might be the same). Converting VA to SQ to make the same redemption would be 97.2k VA points. If it had been available via VA's website as a redemption, it would only cost 74k VA points, though yes I would be up for the hefty SQ carrier surcharges that Velocity levies.

As it stood, was it worth disbursing 97.2k VA points for that flight, or rather an extra 20k? Yes, it got me home, and paying an "extra" 20k VA points or thereabouts was worth it. I'm not sure if it would be worth making a redemption like that per se, but as I had plenty of VA points and I was short on alternatives, 20k extra was worth it. Easily made up by a credit card signup and then some.

Here's some other cases.

Route and Class (one-way)	SQ KrisFlyer redemption (cost in KrisFlyer miles)	VA to SQ transfer, redeem on KrisFlyer (cost in Velocity points)	VA Velocity redemption (cost in Velocity points)
SQ Business SYD-SIN	72,000 (Saver) 103,500 (Advantage)	97,200 (Saver) 139,725 (Advantage)	74,000
SQ Business SIN-HKG	35,500 (Saver) 57,500 (Advantage)	47,925 (Saver) 77,625 (Advantage)	44,500
SQ Business SYD-HKG via SIN	77,000 (Saver) 106,000 (Advantage)	103,950 (Saver) 143,100 (Advantage)	89,500
SQ Business SIN-LHR	108,500 (Saver) 141,500 (Advantage)	146,475 (Saver) 191,025 (Advantage)	104,000
SQ Business SYD-LHR via SIN	141,000 (Saver) 181,500 (Advantage)	190,350 (Saver) 245,025 (Advantage)	158,500

I put the Advantage prices there as well as Saver, because admittedly on SQ we are all definitely not as lucky as everyone else to find Saver all the time to where we have to go.

The way I see it, let's say I only want to do SIN-LHR in J. That's an extra 40k points or so I need in VA to effect the redemption on KrisFlyer, if I can't find that seat by using Velocity. In my opinion, that's an extra amount that's not to be sneezed at. Also, that's if the redemption can be found in Saver. While it's arguable whether the extra points are comparable against dodging the Velocity carrier surcharges, it could also be the extra amount which shuts out someone from being able to make a redemption in the first place.

You do need to check the +++

 

[henleybeach]

2 days ago, I booked 2x J class CPH to ADL with SQ for May next year

 

[anat0l]

You do need to check the +++

You're right, but as I said, that may not be what makes it worth or not worth, let alone able or unable, to book an award seat.

Yes, the difference is hundreds of dollars (from a few to quite a few), but the fact of the matter is that if you don't have that many points, you aren't booking that award seat. The taxes aren't approaching Emirates levels yet (at least on one-way redemptions).

It really depends on how people value how fast they could get the points they need in order to achieve an award in the time that they want (finally, at a cost level they are content with). A 60k difference in points on SIN-LHR avoids paying just under AUD 300 in carrier surcharges. You can't buy 60k points for $300 in Points Boost. I'm not sure if you can purchase wine to get that kind of points with that kind of money. A credit card signup easily exceeds 60k and the annual fee is either around that or about another hundred or so more (and you get more points anyway).

There's obviously talk of whether a whole different programme would be a better idea, e.g. AC or the like. But the thread is about someone who would like to get value for their Velocity points, and whether simply sending them to KrisFlyer is an easy key to get that value (and unlock redemptions).

EDIT: Value changes quite a bit since I messed up the conversion calculations.

 

[serfty]

You're right, but as I said, that may not be what makes it worth or not worth, let alone able or unable, to book an award seat.

Yes, the difference is hundreds of dollars (from a few to quite a few), but the fact of the matter is that if you don't have that many points, you aren't booking that award seat. The taxes aren't approaching Emirates levels yet (at least on one-way redemptions).

It really depends on how people value how fast they could get the points they need in order to achieve an award in the time that they want (finally, at a cost level they are content with). A 40k difference in points on SIN-LHR avoids paying just under AUD 300 in carrier surcharges. You can't buy 40k points for $300 in Points Boost. I'm not sure if you can purchase wine to get that kind of points with that kind of money. A credit card signup easily exceeds 40k and the annual fee is either around that or about another hundred or so more (and you get more points anyway).

There's obviously talk of whether a whole different programme would be a better idea, e.g. AC or the like. But the thread is about someone who would like to get value for their Velocity points, and whether simply sending them to KrisFlyer is an easy key to get that value (and unlock redemptions).

What I am indicating is that when booking an award you should not just look at the ponts. ANY +++ is an important factor.

These days it is difficult to justify booking any award using QR over a revenue fare, let alone EK.

Every $/€/£ can be significant - if one is relying on points/miles then moreso.

Lets look at MEL-xSIN-BKK on SQ metal in economy.

With Velocity the cost is currently 35,000 Pts and $248.

With KrisFlyer the same is 30,500 Pts and $136.

Now if transferring from Velocity to Krisflyer to save that $132 difference, thats over 47K points thankyou.

 

[MELso]

...Lets look at MEL-xSIN-BKK on SQ metal in economy.

With Velocity the cost is currently 35,000 Pts and $248.

With KrisFlyer the same is 30,500 Pts and $136.

Now if transferring from Velocity to Krisflyer to save that $132 difference, thats over 55K points thankyou.

I don't think your maths quite works.

30.5k x 1.55 is 47275 Velocity points. The taxes and charges are $136.95 on KF vs $251.55 on VA, a $114.60 difference.

Assigning a notional value of 1cpp to the extra 12275 Velocity points, the difference in points is worth $122.75.

So all up, an extra $8.15 going through SQ and of course, going though SQ, you deal directly with the carrier and typically get a much greater choice of awards available to you at different times (the only VA reward seat I found on the day I searched in mid-June 2027 was a red eye, while SQ offered 11 choices of timing).

 

[serfty]

I don't think your maths quite works.

30.5k x 1.55 is 47275 Velocity points. The taxes and charges are $136.95 on KF vs $251.55 on VA, a $114.60 difference.

Assigning a notional value of 1cpp to the extra 12275 Velocity points, the difference in points is worth $122.75.

So all up, an extra $8.15 going through SQ and of course, going though SQ, you deal directly with the carrier and typically get a much greater choice of awards available to you at different times (the only VA reward seat I found on the day I searched in mid-June 2027 was a red eye, while SQ offered 11 choices of timing).

Correct, 47K.

However I value a Velocity point at more than 1c; that makes for a different result.

Every one may have their own view.

This is part the point I am making. The total cost of redeeming an award including +++ should be considered. People may also evaluate the source of the points/miles and redemption availability. Some may find it harder to garner Velocity points than Krisflyer miles, others the other way.