Is there a doctor on the plane?

[legroom]

I know it's been widely disputed since you made this post, but I can confirm I was told the exact same thing, from a different medical school. We were told never to volunteer unless there was absolutely no one....

I am surprised, shocked and saddened to read this.

Never heard of it before (early 80s) or since - until today on AFF

I must be seriously in need of a legal CME - preferably with a 16-hr flight in J (2-3 connections on QF or SQ).

 

[Pushka]

We have friends one of whom is an anaesthetist and his partner is a long time ago registered nurse. On their trip a few months ago to the USA the call for a Doctor came over. He (Dr) was asleep so she was the only one to respond. It ended up fine and she was particularly happy with the free Champagne she was given.

 

[puppysparkes]

It was within the last 6. Can't quite remember what year of med school it was.

Hmm it's disappointing to say the least; strikes me as risk mitigation gone wrong. The irony that medical law lecturer would give such advice; oh lord think of all the billable hours he is discouraging from potential clients. Who would've thought! Seriously though the potential for poor medical outcomes could increase with such advice as evidenced by jb747's post.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Hmm it's disappointing to say the least; strikes me as risk mitigation gone wrong. The irony that medical law lecturer would give such advice; oh lord think of all the billable hours he is discouraging from potential clients. Who would've thought! Seriously though the potential for poor medical outcomes could increase with such advice as evidenced by jb747's post.

I have learned to take the advice from Medical Law experts with a large pinch of salt.
I could not and would not sit back and wait for someone else to respond.

 

[TheRealTMA]

The suggestion was to actually have an alcohol drink asap so you can claim incapacitation and refuse to help.
This was from our medical law lecturer .

If you can substantiate that, then his tenure is over.

 

[coolumbla]

personal plan (some will flame me for this)

call 1 roll over and wait for someone else
call 2 own up to what i do for a living

Work always books me as Dr which always gets me asked "are you a medical dr" to which the answer is "only at worK' ( i am not defined by my job )

LAst F flight was advising about FA with early pregnancy and spotting
I gather in theory the FA 's aren't meant to ask but if i was a CSM i would!

I have no issue on qantas flights with assisting as in theory its Australian soil
I along with princess would ignore medicolegal lectures in med school and seek advice elsewhere!

HAving spent an entire LAX-syd flight managing a sick 6yo its a long time!
I think i've related that story before but in flight management isnt that simple

CAll for dr
Roll over
poked in back by Mrs C ,ignore her poked again by mrs c
go an see whats happening
MAny drs , where we figure out im probably best to deal with it over some GP's

C to CSM
this is my name and my jobs
CSM wtf
c we both know you are about to ring your advice line where they will google me and look up my registration before they let me do anything

GO see kid
no idea what mum and dad thought as id been awake for 18 hours and looked it

C to CSM
lets look at bag
Ok you need to ring the advice line because i want to do something thats not first line therapy ( using phenergan not maxalon in a vomiting uptight 6yo)

do this
multiple reviews including getting allocated a seat near them

(half way through flight a FA went and poked Mrs c to say that i was still up teh back, by this stage Mrs C and eldest delinquent had taken over my y seat!. Mrs Cs response was along teh lines of "where else wouid he be?)

SHould we divert? ( phrased as if i had some say in it!)

it was obvious from the discussion with the CSM that she wasn't used to dealing with people with aviation medical experience who had some idea as to procedures etc
WHat i do for a living allows me to be able to deal with what is essentially pre-hospital stuff
Its a tough environment and to be honest some drs have an inflated opinion of their own usefulness and may in fact be better sitting down

given a 20 yr experience paramedic v a 2nd year Dr i'll take the paramedic in a plane emergency

rang the qantas Chief MO to suggest some changes (zofran wafers) he'd never heard of them . Did get offered a chance to apply for teh medical advice board where i suggested some colleagues with way too much time in helicopters or who run their own travel medicine advice companies. didnt hear anymore

CSM to C
WHat can i give you for helping
Well you cant put the family in J as there arent any seats
Teh girls already have J and F amenity kit and they actually like emirates ones better

ended up with a cappucino for Mrs C with brekky and teh delinquents got to visit the coughpit after we landed ( A 380's been in service about 6 montsh at that stage) Teh frist officer and i had been chatting in flight as the direct line wasnt working so was relaying through him

DId get a voucher in the post later


SO do i help?
yes but i wait!


A joke

IS there an anestethist on board?
repeated several times with increased urgency

FInally someone puts their hand up and asks what teh emergency

Of theres no emergency its just that there is a surgeon in first class who needs his reading light adjusted!

 

[whatmeworry]

When I did first aid training, the trainer said you basically can't get sued for providing or not first aid but it was always your choice whether you provided assistance or not.

I don't about the rest of you but I try to help people if they need it.

 

[medhead]

Cheers She's a recent graduate of Flinders Medical in SA. She wasn't saying that they shouldn't respond, rather that they should wait until all other avenues of help have been exhausted. That said, I know she (and probably most other MDs) would be more than happy to assist. It just struck me as being off as I thought that should have been the response, not 'wait and see'.

I obviously can't comment as to the nature of how it comes in line with what the law states, but this conversation started when I jokingly asked "have they trained you how to respond to 'is there a doctor in the house?'", so I was just going from that

Probably sound advice. Last thing I'd want is a recent graduate if I was sick.

 

[HKGNZL]

My good friend who is a GP in Canada told me QF is the first airline to have defibrillator on long haul flights. (I have no way to verify that.)

It was >10 yrs ago now, but last time I helped on a QF flight (long haul) I was impressed with the range of emergency drugs and i.v. medications (and defibrillator) they carried. On that occasion, at least two FAs were ex-nurses.

Have also been in situations where there were 3 or 4 doctors willing to attend passenger and provided different opinions (i.e. doctors vs doctors). On another flight, a specialist more appropriate to the patient's condition first attended the pax. They promptly entered into an argument and I was asked to step in to help....

One interesting scenario: a pax forgot to take her usual medications and felt that was all she needed. QF does not carry that in their kits. QF refuses to ask the rest of the plane if other pax may have it - apparently QF policy worries of liability of giving some pills from one pax to another.

 

[legroom]

Probably sound advice. Last thing I'd want is a recent graduate if I was sick.

All things being equal, a recent graduate would be more useful than a member of the travelling public.

The talk about an experienced front line ambo vs a recent graduate is slightly off topic IMHO.

People should contribute according to their skill set, not their title or job description.

 

[drron]

Reminds me of a time I stopped to help a woman who had collapsed.I literally got pulled away from the action by another woman yelling-get out of the way,I am a nurse.

 

[Pushka]

<snip>
Work always books me as Dr which always gets me asked "are you a medical dr" to which the answer is "only at worK' ( i am not defined by my job )

I'm not going to flame you but I guess the days of medicine being a "calling" are gone. Now it's just a job.

I get that on holidays everyone needs to escape. But if travelling for non vacation purposes I'd like to think if I had a health emergency that if there was a medical person onboard then someone would step up.

 

[benhadi]

I guess it's a case of a few bad apples spoil it for everyone else. This is happening simply because of (i am speculating of course) a few lawsuits against doctors helping "outside" of their normal workplace i.e. in aircrafts while on vacation after having 1-2 drinks etc. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far the other way? Nowadays everything we do, whether in medical profession or otherwise, we always have to consider legal implications. Unfortunately that often impedes on what otherwise would have been "humane" and the "right thing to do". Society and legal implications have, unfortunately, reduced many professions to function as "just a job".

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up of course, not necessarily because it doesn't exist but rather because I can't be bothered researching. This is just my hypothesis.

 

[walshy002000]

Last thing I'd want is a recent graduate if I was sick.

On a serious note, there probably is an element of this to reaffirm to (pre)graduates not to think they're a tenured heart surgeon when they're only 1 year into med. But if this was meant to be the focus (and obviously it wasn't following the other post saying the same thing), it should have been better phrased to 'work within your capabilities'.

Generally in life I like to believe the majority of people are nice and willing to do the right thing, which is why society functions and why a nurse is willing to help on a flight. But it is sad that formal training doesn't reaffirm 'just do good' as its philosophy.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I'm not going to flame you but I guess the days of medicine being a "calling" are gone. Now it's just a job.

I get that on holidays everyone needs to escape. But if travelling for non vacation purposes I'd like to think if I had a health emergency that if there was a medical person onboard then someone would step up.

Maybe I still have my rose-tinted specs on Pushka but I firmly believe that for many people medicine ( and other health professions) are indeed a calling.

Knowing coolumbla very well I know that he would and has assisted at many medical emergencies on board and (?) may have omitted a smiley or two in his reply.

 

[legroom]

... I'm not going to flame you but I guess the days of medicine being a "calling" are gone. Now it's just a job....

At the risk of going off topic, I am going to respond.

Not really !

While the legal clerks will be happily notching up billable items such as reading a 1-line phone message or forwarding an expert witness' invoice or charging you $15 for a few pages of photocopying, most Drs would be thinking about their patients and their problems without a thought about billing.

Abnormal results ---> Phone call to patients to discuss

Anxious relatives ---> 15 min explanation

Worried post op ---> 10 min explanation / reassurance

6:30am ward round before theatre to ensure best care to patients when you are occupied

.....

None of that would be calculated with a view to the 'bottom line".

So, I beg to disagree with the sleight of hand description that medicine no longer is a "calling".

All people is different - medicos not excepted, but to tar a broad brush like you did is manifestly not justifiable.

In fact, unless you have a "heart" for it, the long hours during training would certainly spit you out very very early.

 

[Pushka]

At the risk of going off topic, I am going to respond.

Not really !

While the legal clerks will be happily notching up billable items such as reading a 1-line phone message or forwarding an expert witness' invoice or charging you $15 for a few pages of photocopying, most Drs would be thinking about their patients and their problems without a thought about billing.

Abnormal results ---> Phone call to patients to discuss

Anxious relatives ---> 15 min explanation

Worried post op ---> 10 min explanation / reassurance

6:30am ward round before theatre to ensure best care to patients when you are occupied

.....

None of that would be calculated with a view to the 'bottom line".

So, I beg to disagree with the sleight of hand description that medicine no longer is a "calling".

All people is different - medicos not excepted, but to tar a broad brush like you did is manifestly not justifiable.

In fact, unless you have a "heart" for it, the long hours during training would certainly spit you out very very early.

Just going on what coolumbla said: "a job". I dont know coolumbla, and he himself (herself) also thought their post might get flamed so clearly they thought there was a possibility they were saying things which weren't going to come across well in a forum.

And I didn't intend a broad brush by any stretch. Perhaps I should have said "to some it's no longer a calling".

And if I was a medic I don't actually think I would want to be compared with a legal cleric who counts the seconds, with how I apportioned/costed my time. Actually, there are'nt too many professionals who would want to be compared with the profession that ticks off every minute and charges for it.

 

[medhead]

All things being equal, a recent graduate would be more useful than a member of the travelling public.

The talk about an experienced front line ambo vs a recent graduate is slightly off topic IMHO.

People should contribute according to their skill set, not their title or job description.

IME recent graduates can make some extremely bizarre calls. Perhaps because they still have a lengthy period of training still to complete. I'll stick with the member of the public, all things being equal.

 

[legroom]

IME recent graduates can make some extremely bizarre calls. Perhaps because they still have a lengthy period of training still to complete. I'll stick with the member of the public, all things being equal.

IIRC, by the time they pick up the degrees - fresh graduates before the internship - they already know how to do a POP (Plaster of Paris) for a fracture, have helped to deliver 5-7 babies and fully aware that Aspirin saves lives in a heart attack plus knowing the normal heart / breathing rates (i.e. what is abnormal)......

So, you are 100% free to choose a member of the public.

We live in a free country after all.

 

[erkpod]

I think Flying High/Airplane would have been a different movie if there wasn't a doctor onboard.

I know that in my role as a Public Transit Movement Facilitator (Rails), the chance of emergencies, emergency evacuation & even things like train faults is a regular thing that goes through my mind. When I'm driving around, one of the things I'm thinking about is "who is on my train & who could I call on right now if I need them for *insert situation here*. Sometimes they'll be in uniform & sometimes they aren't. But in something like a 9/11 situation, I just wouldn't be thinking about a doctor or other medical professional. I often have other staff members, emergency services, medical professions, members of the defence forces, airline staff - all of who most likely would be of some use if needed.

Sometimes just a uniform of any description might help in a situation. Just last night on my meal break, I was in a convenience store across the road from a station. The shop staff were having an argument with a guy they suspected of shoplifting. With previous experience in that type of situation, I sorted out the situation in under a minute compared to the shop staff who had been going backwards & forwards with this guy for the couple of minutes I was in the shop & who knows how long they were arguing with him before I got there.


When flying, I like to sit in an exit row if I'm not flying in my newly found love of flying J. Apart from the extra leg room compared to a normal seat in Y, I'd like to think that I could be some use in the unlikely event of an emergency, in part due to my experience with emergency services, emergency management & dealing with the public in various roles. I know I'd feel better if the exit rows were filled with off duty firefighters (for instance).