Indonesia Air Asia flight QZ 8501 loses contact with ATC

[jsoprano]

I thought he was refused a climb, not a track change. The normal reply is 'unable', which simply means you would be in conflict with someone else. If the weather were that bad, the entire stream would be moving around it.

In any event ATC cannot force you to fly through anything...behind is always an option.

I was wondering that, jb. So if left, right and upwards are no option due to other traffic, would you just go into a hold pattern until traffic cleared and then climb?

 

[BAM1748]

I thought he was refused a climb, not a track change. The normal reply is 'unable', which simply means you would be in conflict with someone else. If the weather were that bad, the entire stream would be moving around it.

In any event ATC cannot force you to fly through anything...behind is always an option.

Exactly why the full conversation of what he asked and what he was told would be good.

 

[medhead]

Exactly why the full conversation of what he asked and what he was told would be good.

And as a small, but critical, part of the whole 2 hours recorded on the CVR that might be included in the report.

Yet again all that quote says is that the full transcript will not be included in the final report. That does not preclude inclusion of critical bits of the transcript and in fact the quote suggests as much.

Talk about adding 2+2 and getting 434 million.

 

[jb747]

I was wondering that, jb. So if left, right and upwards are no option due to other traffic, would you just go into a hold pattern until traffic cleared and then climb?

Upwards is NEVER an option.

Holding is is not really an option either, as you'll end up in conflict with whoever is behind you. There are published contingency procedures, which will involve taking yourself off the planned track, and then climbing or descending a few hundred feet. In any event, if the aircraft is in danger, just do what you need to do. ATC don't have a big hand that reaches down from the sky...

 

[clifford]

Well he managed to kill more people in one go than Indonesia's new firing squads.

Given the lack of response, I can only assume that Australia approves of the death penalty. Not a problem for me, but we should just come out and be honest.

Oh, and if you just thought I was a stupid trouble maker, I used to be a permanent Assistant Secretary at the Australian CAA.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

Well he managed to kill more people in one go than Indonesia's new firing squads.

Given the lack of response, I can only assume that Australia approves of the death penalty. Not a problem for me, but we should just come out and be honest.

Oh, and if you just thought I was a stupid trouble maker, I used to be a permanent Assistant Secretary at the Australian CAA.

Off topic much?

 

[QF WP]

Well he managed to kill more people in one go than Indonesia's new firing squads.

Given the lack of response, I can only assume that Australia approves of the death penalty. Not a problem for me, but we should just come out and be honest.

Oh, and if you just thought I was a stupid trouble maker, I used to be a permanent Assistant Secretary at the Australian CAA.

Are you meaning the pilots? Agree with others that the linkage to something that appear to be some errors in judgement and process are anything similar to firing squads and death sentences.

 

[RooFlyer]

Well he managed to kill more people in one go than Indonesia's new firing squads.

Given the lack of response, I can only assume that Australia approves of the death penalty. Not a problem for me, but we should just come out and be honest.

Oh, and if you just thought I was a stupid trouble maker, I used to be a permanent Assistant Secretary at the Australian CAA.

Pre Seaview, presumably?

 

[Mal]

More mindless speculation.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30902237

.
"Ignasius Jonan told a parliamentary hearing in Jakarta that flight QZ8501 had ascended at a speed of 6,000ft (1,828m) per minute.

No passenger or fighter jet would attempt to climb so fast, he said."

Well, that's what the radar *allegedly* says, let's wait for the analysis of the black boxes.

 

[Slime]

Upwards is NEVER an option.

Holding is is not really an option either, as you'll end up in conflict with whoever is behind you. There are published contingency procedures, which will involve taking yourself off the planned track, and then climbing or descending a few hundred feet. In any event, if the aircraft is in danger, just do what you need to do. ATC don't have a big hand that reaches down from the sky...

Seems to be an issue with ATC and the pilot communications. It is a bit disturbing that ATC can just simply say no to a pilot course change request without any further dialogue or presenting / discussing other feasible options.

 

[markis10]

Seems to be an issue with ATC and the pilot communications. It is a bit disturbing that ATC can just simply say no to a pilot course change request without any further dialogue or presenting / discussing other feasible options.

Why is it disturbing that they are concise, its not like its a 1 on 1 scenario, they have other things to do, and we don't know what their workload was like.

 

[Slime]

Yes I am only speaking from the view point of a passenger but I hope being too busy for the pilots and ATC to work through a problem is not the reason why the plane finished up being fished up out of the sea

 

[medhead]

Yes I am only speaking from the view point of a passenger but I hope being too busy for the pilots and ATC to work through a problem is not the reason why the plane finished up being fished up out of the sea

It isn't ATC's responsibility to work through the problem. The pilot/crew are responsible for the safety of the aircraft. They have all the information required to assess their situation and develop a response from there. Based only on the posts in this thread it sounds like the pilots assessed their situation, decided on their preferred option and asked for a change. ATC under their responsibility to manage the airspace, maintain aircraft separation and all that, said the requested option was not possible.

There was nothing preventing the pilot from asking for another option. There was nothing preventing the pilot declaring an emergency to have ATC to give them priority. Declaring an emergency wouldn't be a simple matter, obviously. But it should be an option.

Personally, as a passenger I'd be more concerned if pilots where having a discussion session with someone 100s of miles away who has no direct info about the state of aircraft.

 

[markis10]

Reuters have put together an interesting graphic on the radar data apparently:

 

[moa999]

614-617 is weird given seemingly at stable altitude yet not responding

 

[QF WP]

Thanks markis10. To my untrained eye, it looks like they began complying with the ATC directive given they began to climb to the assigned altitude - perhaps they were unable to report back because of the weather they were in?

Climb appears steep, but the again so does the initial decent from the top of climb. Then it all goes awry. Shades of poor airmanship (AF447) by trying to climb to near the ceiling height of the aircraft, whereas dropping and going around would seem feasible options and ones that give plenty of options.

 

[markis10]

Thanks markis10. To my untrained eye, it looks like they began complying with the ATC directive given they began to climb to the assigned altitude - perhaps they were unable to report back because of the weather they were in?

Climb appears steep, but the again so does the initial decent from the top of climb. Then it all goes awry. Shades of poor airmanship (AF447) by trying to climb to near the ceiling height of the aircraft, whereas dropping and going around would seem feasible options and ones that give plenty of options.

I have a feeling the climb was not initiated by the crew, but rather the result of being in an updraft in the middle of the storm, the preceding minutes the lack of comms being a result of the crew navigating the turbulence as they entered the cell.

 

[jb747]

I have a feeling the climb was not initiated by the crew, but rather the result of being in an updraft in the middle of the storm, the preceding minutes the lack of comms being a result of the crew navigating the turbulence as they entered the cell.

I guess we'll find out soon enough, but I don't think the climb had anything much to do with an updraft, but more to do with some of the flight control behaviours...especially if you throw in some probe (or AoA) icing.

 

[markis10]

I guess we'll find out soon enough, but I don't think the climb had anything much to do with an updraft, but more to do with some of the flight control behaviours...especially if you throw in some probe (or AoA) icing.

How did they achieve a 17000fpm climb rate, based on what I presume is Mode C data?

 

[markis10]

Here is the ADSB data supposedly, showing 12000fpm climb at one stage, along with track datum.