Grammar Discussions

[JessicaTam]

Oh look. We got our own thread.

Now we are up there with cats and moggies!

Let the rants continue...

Oh, recently saw a green-grocer selling onoins and refused to be corrected. You would think they would know how to spell them!

 

[Anna]

Totally agree with you JessicaTam. You'd think we had the same English teacher at school or something

Microsoft has a lot of answer for with spell check which (at least on our office system) corrects the perfectly correct "advice" (noun) to "advise" and "licence" to "license". People who don't know any better believe that spell check is correct.

One I don't like is "invite" used as a noun instead of "invitation", but I think I am barking up a brick wall on my own with that.

 

[dk4]

Glass houses and all that...but, my favourite on this web site is reading posts by people who like to sit on the isle.

I picture lazing on a serene, deserted beach somewhere in the Caribbean.

 

[SeatBackForward]

Lets not confuse grammar with communication. By way of communicating, practically anything goes, including SMS speak (as much as I detest it myself). Languages evolve and grow and are there to serve as communication tools, so ultimately while focusing on grammar can be important, it shouldn't be at the expense of reducing the communicative effectiveness.

That said, well structured, grammatically correct language does reduce ambiguity and makes for better communication. And....

 

[anat0l]

Oh, recently saw a green-grocer selling onoins and refused to be corrected. You would think they would know how to spell them!

English is an odd language. You can spell rather poorly and even stuff up the grammar, but as long as it isn't absolutely awful, you have a shot at being understood (and understood as intended, at that). Sort of makes up for the fact that English is likely one of the, if not the most, difficult languages to learn in the world.

I mean, obviously if your spelling and grammar are poor, you may not be respected as such depending on the context......

There aren't many other languages where you can stuff up spelling and/or grammar (or tone or pronunciation, as applicable) and suddenly you cannot be understood at all, or you say absolutely the completely wrong thing.

Microsoft has a lot of answer for with spell check which (at least on our office system) corrects the perfectly correct "advice" (noun) to "advise" and "licence" to "license". People who don't know any better believe that spell check is correct.

Maybe they do, but people rely too much on the spelling (or worse, grammar) checker. I especially cringe when they start the spell & replace function (i.e. the function which scans the entire document for errors, then automatically replaces them with the most popular correction).

Whether or not the spell checker gets it wrong - and yes it's been known to do that - is no excuse to attempt to shift the responsibility away from the author.

One I don't like is "invite" used as a noun instead of "invitation", but I think I am barking up a brick wall on my own with that.

I believe that might be a habit borne from social media, instant messaging or the like, where the function to add another contact or what not was called "Invite" (or "Invite..."), thus it was thrown around as such in conversation to be consistent with the exact text of the command, even though you are right that "invitation" (i.e. "just send me an invitation to join...") is the correct word.

Glass houses and all that...but, ...

That's a tough one. I'm not perfect at grammar and spelling (still make mistakes and wouldn't be surprised if I've made some even within this thread), but does that mean we don't have the right to point out what is clearly a mistake or not?

Not having a go at you, because people will frequently use that as an "excuse" to cover up their own "inability" (or insecurity). One reason why "Grammar naz_" is popularised, and you can see - especially on article comments (on blogs, news sites, etc.) - that if anyone attempts to correct grammar, especially for the purposes of attacking the original poster, there will be a large vitriolic follow-up to that correcting post. It would seem that adopting an even ludicrous position which is counter to the author would attract less attention than pointing out one's grammar.

Which underscores the "point" - grammar (and spelling) seems to matter little in popular society now, as long as you can get your message across.

 

[anat0l]

Lets not confuse grammar with communication. By way of communicating, practically anything goes, including SMS speak (as much as I detest it myself). Languages evolve and grow and are there to serve as communication tools, so ultimately while focusing on grammar can be important, it shouldn't be at the expense of reducing the communicative effectiveness.

That said, well structured, grammatically correct language does reduce ambiguity and makes for better communication. And....

Agreed. But the problem mainly stems from the focus on communication without any regard for grammar. That may be fine in some situations where getting a message across is much more important (e.g. imperative situations), but in other cases it is not acceptable to have a poor standard in either.

Notwithstanding your statement about good grammar reinforcing good communication, I suppose that bad communication is a real problem as you basically don't get your message across, whereas bad grammar simply means you've carried your message but perhaps done so poorly (which, in the greater scheme of things, is not a big deal as such).

That said, passable grammar and spelling for native speakers should be a given by at least the end of primary schooling, let alone the end of compulsory education. That's why I believe that mechanically drilling spelling in high school is, or should be, a waste of time.

 

[drron]

Well.I.am glad youse have all got yours own thred.Ewe can says watever youse like now and I shoodnt have to lissen.

 

[robd]

...have to...

You mean "hafta"?

 

[Fantic125]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Well, I'll be! I think I have never known the difference between these. Thanks!

That said, I use 'stationary' a lot more than the other one, so I've probably just been lucky.... used correctly, of course (stationary meaning still or not moving).

I guess 'stationery' would be more common if you're into office supplies or if you're a petty cashier.

At a previous company I worked at, a punctilious employee put a sign on the Stationery Cupboard;

"This is a stationary cupboard used for the storage of stationery. Recognise the difference!"

 

[Buzzard]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Well, I'll be! I think I have never known the difference between these. Thanks!

That said, I use 'stationary' a lot more than the other one, so I've probably just been lucky.... used correctly, of course (stationary meaning still or not moving).

I guess 'stationery' would be more common if you're into office supplies or if you're a petty cashier.

I know a few cashiers and some of them are petty

 

[AdMEL]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

In formal writing, it still really isn't acceptable. Even starting sentences with "Also" should be avoided (although not necessarily as bad as starting with "And").

Starting a sentence with "And" is likely more common in speech or in a passage which is intended to imitate speech (or written in first or second person); the result of essentially substituting a comma (or semi-colon) for a period is then what results in the unwitting error, which in speech results in a firmer emphasis of the second statement / clause. For example:

"These documents must be at the client's office tomorrow by 8 am, sharp. And I really mean it this time!"

Of course, in the example, one could probably drop the 'And' and it will still makes sense, although there is a small sacrifice in carried meaning.





I use "Yours sincerely" sometimes but have avoided "Yours faithfully" for quite some time as it seems to (whether incorrectly or not) carry a somewhat religious connotation, or doesn't seem to convey a correct emotion for the letter which was written. More common usage is now "Best Regards" or "Kind Regards", but I tend to use "Yours sincerely" for those times when a written / signed letter is required.

Whilst Regards and Kind Regards (also Regards) are common for e-mail, I didn't realise they had become common for written letters!

I've also noticed that Best Regards is now sometimes being shortened to just Best, and by some older and high profile professional people too! I've done a double take on a couple of occasions when I've received e-mails with just Best in a professional environment, from professionals.

Licence and license
Eligible and eligable
Grey and gray

First line is the difference between noun and verb, I believe.

The second line is simple - the second word is a spelling error of the first one.

The third is "jury out". According to my quick search, the former is more common in UK English, whereas the latter is more common in American English. I can't remember which one I use more myself; I think it might be 'grey'. The only time they aren't interchangeable is in some words, like "greyhound" (not "grayhound").

License is also a noun in American English!

 

[Katie]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Just remember the English Language is evolving.

It is! I think the grocer's apostrophe will be the standard plural marker in 100yrs. Usage trumps stylistic correctness.

(I'm not saying I like it, just making a linguistic observation.)

 

[robd]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I placed an ad on Seek yesterday afternoon and have received around 100 applications. I'm starting to despair....


"Thankyou for taking the time to pursue my following letter & resume" and "I am acquiring a position with regular hours....".

 

[NM]

You mean "hafta"?

Which reminds me of the Texan word "fixinta" - as in "I'm fixinta mow the grass"

 

[Buzzard]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Stationary is an adjective so it is spelt with an "a".

I was taught the spelling difference this way -

A person who sells stationery is a station er not a station ar.

 

[Buzzard]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Correct about licence and license. I used to issue a licence to people so that they were licensed to operate.

Grey is a colour. Gray is a unit for measuring radiation.

Just like color and colour, is it not gray for colour in the US?

 

[Uncle BJ]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Pet hate: advise v inform.

Lawyers may advise. Telling someone that a particular situation exists is not advising but informing.

And don't get me started on disinterested. It does not mean uninterested.

 

[Buzzard]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

We were also strict on spelling and grammar with our children. We would look at their work and correct spelling mistakes that teachers either didn't know about, couldn't be bothered to check, or didn't have time to deal with.

A classic case was when one child was in year 7. A student teacher had given the class a spelling test. And he had no clue. He had crossed out the correctly spelt words and inserted his own incorrectly spelt ones. My son knew the teacher was wrong and laughed it off.

But I did visit the Deputy Principal (Principle according to my IPhone! ) about this as there were several children in the class who had learning issues. Not good enough. If people can't spell that's their issue but to think they are teaching their students the same errors!

Their and there.

Starting a sentence with a conjuction - correct or not? Perhaps the sentence shoud be Moreover, he had no clue.

I think that modern phones have a lot to answer for. As you start to type a word the phone will try to guess what it is you are typing, allowing you to simply select the word you want. Does this detract from learning?

English is such a complicated language.

 

[JessicaTam]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Starting a sentence with a conjuction - correct or not? Perhaps the sentence shoud be Moreover, he had no clue.

I think that modern phones have a lot to answer for. As you start to type a word the phone will try to guess what it is you are typing, allowing you to simply select the word you want. Does this detract from learning?

English is such a complicated language.

It is now accepted to start a sentence with a conjunction, and even to occasionally split an infinitive.

 

[TheEmu]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Should've - IPhone recognised it so it's more than an Aussie thing.

I haven't seen it on this forum but another thing I dislike is text speak in forums.

I just hate text speak - even in texts.
"Bored of" is one of the most grating misuses of the language. Like, I'm bored of, like, this discussion...