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General Medical issues thread

juddles

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Today I received my pack of e-cig paraphernalia that I ordered online. Am desiring to continue my nicotine habit but get rid of the terrors that burning tobacco cause to bodies. This has been a very enlightening experience. I cannot believe just how backward the medical profession is in Australia in regards to e-cigarettes.

The position that the authorities have taken, especially in Queensland, is mind-boggling. Anyone like myself that seeks a far less harmfull product is prevented at every door. In Queensland e-cigs with nicotine are as dangerous, legally, as heroin. WTF??
 

prozac

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Today I spoke with my cobber who had a heart transplant . He was in good spirits and I think he is 78 now. I am always pleased that he is still around.
Keep your spirits up prozac as there have been great advances in treatments.
Thanks Cove. Spirits are up surprisingly. It is not the procedure that worries me, it's the stuff that leads you into the consultants rooms I can do without. Besides I know everyone in theatre now, it will be like a reunion. ;)
 

juddles

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E-cigs are somehow tied to notions of smoking, of "big tobacco". yet this is completely untrue. Nicotine is quoted by many as a "poison', even though to get any adverse medical effects would require you to to be involved in the old usage of intense concentrations that were used in the pesticide industry. The impact on non-users, even in an extremely confined space, contain less harmful gasses than an average city street. Nicotine does not cause cancer. It is the burning of tobacco that unleashes the bad things. An e-cig is no more harmful to a user than a cup of coffee. It has no health impact on others. Yet it is vilified by Australian medicine. Because it removes itself from the crusade against smoking.

No more butts on the street. No more second-hand smoke effects. A part of the population that no longer suffer all the associated illnesses that smoking causes. Those to whom alternatives did not work but the government penalizes them financially. The final opportunity to reach the end-game, very needed, of a total removal of people from tobacco. But the authorities intensely fight it? It is unethical. It is archaic. No stats support the attempted rejections - it does not induce young people to smoke. It does not medically affect "passive smokers". It is not an industry led by old-age tobacco companies - it is almost totally small businesses that can remove the sway of big money from the entire field.

You can buy a pack of smokes from any local shop in Queensland. And using that product will produce those hideous butts. You will, using those cigarettes, produce toxic clouds of smoke. All legal, perhaps even encouraged due to the taxes. The taxation on addicts is more lucrative in Australia than any other country in the world.

But if you want to swap to e-cigs, there is minimal money in taxes. All the negatives are removed. The previous addicts no longer suffer the harm. But it is treated as a criminal alternative.

Can anyone explain to me why?

I know why. It is dogma. It is bad science. It is obscene. Australia just manages to come last in realising this. Being anti-tobacco is a given here. It is an extremely secure and lucrative stance to take. And somehow a harmless alternative has managed to be roped into the same corner, as smoking.

It is not the same.
 

Flying mermaid

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E-cigs are somehow tied to notions of smoking, of "big tobacco". yet this is completely untrue. Nicotine is quoted by many as a "poison', even though to get any adverse medical effects would require you to to be involved in the old usage of intense concentrations that were used in the pesticide industry. The impact on non-users, even in an extremely confined space, contain less harmful gasses than an average city street. Nicotine does not cause cancer. It is the burning of tobacco that unleashes the bad things. An e-cig is no more harmful to a user than a cup of coffee. It has no health impact on others. Yet it is vilified by Australian medicine. Because it removes itself from the crusade against smoking.

No more butts on the street. No more second-hand smoke effects. A part of the population that no longer suffer all the associated illnesses that smoking causes. Those to whom alternatives did not work but the government penalizes them financially. The final opportunity to reach the end-game, very needed, of a total removal of people from tobacco. But the authorities intensely fight it? It is unethical. It is archaic. No stats support the attempted rejections - it does not induce young people to smoke. It does not medically affect "passive smokers". It is not an industry led by old-age tobacco companies - it is almost totally small businesses that can remove the sway of big money from the entire field.

You can buy a pack of smokes from any local shop in Queensland. And using that product will produce those hideous butts. You will, using those cigarettes, produce toxic clouds of smoke. All legal, perhaps even encouraged due to the taxes. The taxation on addicts is more lucrative in Australia than any other country in the world.

But if you want to swap to e-cigs, there is minimal money in taxes. All the negatives are removed. The previous addicts no longer suffer the harm. But it is treated as a criminal alternative.

Can anyone explain to me why?

I know why. It is dogma. It is bad science. It is obscene. Australia just manages to come last in realising this. Being anti-tobacco is a given here. It is an extremely secure and lucrative stance to take. And somehow a harmless alternative has managed to be roped into the same corner, as smoking.

It is not the same.
Here is some research for you (not Australian). It has a “pro” case and a “con” one, so both are an interesting read. The “con” research is at about page 9.

 

juddles

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Here is some research for you (not Australian). It has a “pro” case and a “con” one, so both are an interesting read. The “con” research is at about page 9.

Thanks :)

Pretty much all of the "cons" have been shown to be possibilities or theories that data has not supported. The only stats that have been obtained reveal that since the introduction of e-cigs, the number of tobacco-smokers has decreased. The reference text is very valid in that it contains the usual - the pro's are not in contention, the cons are ideas only.

At the end of the day I rest my own case. Is it best for me, my family, and the nation, for me to continue smoking highly harmful cigarettes? Or to try e-cigs as a pathway to quitting? A product that removes between 95 to 99% of the harmful aspects (to myself and to others). A product no more harmful than coffee? Or to breathing on a city street?
 

prozac

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Thanks :)

Pretty much all of the "cons" have been shown to be possibilities or theories that data has not supported. The only stats that have been obtained reveal that since the introduction of e-cigs, the number of tobacco-smokers has decreased. The reference text is very valid in that it contains the usual - the pro's are not in contention, the cons are ideas only.

At the end of the day I rest my own case. Is it best for me, my family, and the nation, for me to continue smoking highly harmful cigarettes? Or to try e-cigs as a pathway to quitting? A product that removes between 95 to 99% of the harmful aspects (to myself and to others). A product no more harmful than coffee? Or to breathing on a city street?
Is it legal in NSW?
 

juddles

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Is it legal in NSW?
Am not sure of NSW legislation. Nicotine products are allowed under federal legislation, but it is the States that invent their own things. For example, in Queensland I can legally import nicotine e-cig products, but the moment they arrive at my door the state government says they are illegal. So I can legally import them, but not legally possess them once they arrive at my doorstep??????

Yet I can buy a pack of nicotine-containing smokes from any shop. Completely legally. But if I choose a nicotine-containing product that is not a heavily taxed smoke, then suddenly the nicotine is classed with heroin as a forbidden thing. And I become a criminal.

Even though my entire drive here is to lessen harm to myself and others. With substituting a product that has almost insignificant health effects, to me or to others.
 

Hvr

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With substituting a product that has almost insignificant health effects, to me or to others.
I don't see how death can be described as an insignificant health effect.

A Victorian baby has reportedly died after being exposed to liquid nicotine from an e-cigarette.
The coroner’s office, which is in the process of investigating the tragic death, has refused to release any further details.
But sources confirmed to the Herald Sun that the baby’s death was directly related to the ingestion of the liquid nicotine.

The tiny bub is tragically one of the nearly 80 Australian children poisoned by nicotine in just seven years.
 

Bundy Bear

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Is bad to consider going to a private hospital emergency because I am still feeling sick after 8 days to get a 2nd opinion.

Seems like if I miss the previous years cold then I get a double dose the following year.

My ear is still sore but now the colour of discharge has changed, a friend suggested my brains must have completely fallen out then.
 

juddles

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I don't see how death can be described as an insignificant health effect.
Hvr, that is truly not a fair comment. There are a trillion products that are "poisons" when not used in either the fashion or the dose they should be. Principal among these are cosmetics, medicines, and cleaning products in a household setting. Thousands of children are poisoned in Australia each year by all these other things. It is just not as newsworthy because it is so common.

But obviously, any single incident is a tragedy, and all should be done to prevent this. Banning all potentially harmful products would see almost all of the above (medicines, cleaning stuff,etc) banned from use, which is clearly absurd. Packaging and education are the real safeguards.

The current government stance means that people import nicotine-containing products from overseas, via the internet. Not exactly the best way to control things. Modern nicotine products for vaping come in child-proof bottles, the same as any other item that should not be ingested by a child.
 

Pushka

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Is bad to consider going to a private hospital emergency because I am still feeling sick after 8 days to get a 2nd opinion.

Seems like if I miss the previous years cold then I get a double dose the following year.

My ear is still sore but now the colour of discharge has changed, a friend suggested my brains must have completely fallen out then.
If things have changed considerably then health is a priority. It will cost a bit though but other than that there are no reasons why not check. If it’s part of a normal pattern for you then maybe it’s just going to run it’s course.
 

Major

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Apparently I have a very high Calcium Count and my new Cardiologist will perform an Angiogram next week. Should be fun
Back after my Coronary Angiogram yesterday and pleased to report no significant problems.

No stents required and a bypass not necessary. There was some minor build up in the smaller blood vessels but the Cardiologist was generally happy with the result.

It's really interesting watching the dye move around your heart's different channels
 

suze2000

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Is bad to consider going to a private hospital emergency because I am still feeling sick after 8 days to get a 2nd opinion.
My ear is still sore but now the colour of discharge has changed, a friend suggested my brains must have completely fallen out then.
No, but I think you might be better off presenting back at your GP or the hospital you went to first up. Especially as it's persisted so long and there's been a change, they will be interested. You could save yourself a lot of money - private EDs cost a fair amount.

But either way, yes, you need to have it looked at.
 

Quickstatus

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Thanks :)

Pretty much all of the "cons" have been shown to be possibilities or theories that data has not supported. The only stats that have been obtained reveal that since the introduction of e-cigs, the number of tobacco-smokers has decreased. The reference text is very valid in that it contains the usual - the pro's are not in contention, the cons are ideas only.

At the end of the day I rest my own case. Is it best for me, my family, and the nation, for me to continue smoking highly harmful cigarettes? Or to try e-cigs as a pathway to quitting? A product that removes between 95 to 99% of the harmful aspects (to myself and to others). A product no more harmful than coffee? Or to breathing on a city street?
One of the reasons reveal itself if you follow the money. In this case the tobacco excise.
It is definitely not lucrative treating smoking related illnesses. Because smoking is strongly related to lower socioeconomic status, most people with smoking related illnesses tend to have other co-morbidities and have limited means.

On the public health issue:
There is very poor outcome evidence for e-cigs as an aid for smoking cessation. The suggestion that e-cigs may normalise "smoking" behaviour makes sense. The fact that e-cigs consumption has exploded overseas suggest that this is true.
You only have to look at the methadone programme which was supposed to help opiate addicts get off their opiate addictions.
Nicotine is highly addictive. Hence the difficulty in getting off the stuff.

Here is the AMA's submission to the Parliamentary inquiry into E-cigarettes.
 
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prozac

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Back after my Coronary Angiogram yesterday and pleased to report no significant problems.

No stents required and a bypass not necessary. There was some minor build up in the smaller blood vessels but the Cardiologist was generally happy with the result.

It's really interesting watching the dye move around your heart's different channels
Well done Major.
I am still in after another stent and an uncomfortable night and now delayed release as Troponin levels a high 3,000. May go home tomorrow if it trends down.
 

juddles

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One of the reasons reveal itself if you follow the money. In this case the tobacco excise.
It is definitely not lucrative treating smoking related illnesses. Because smoking is strongly related to lower socioeconomic status, most people with smoking related illnesses tend to have other co-morbidities and have limited means.

On the public health issue:
There is very poor outcome evidence for e-cigs as an aid for smoking cessation. The suggestion that e-cigs may normalise "smoking" behaviour makes sense. The fact that e-cigs consumption has exploded overseas suggest that this is true.
You only have to look at the methadone programme which was supposed to help opiate addicts get off their opiate addictions.
Nicotine is highly addictive. Hence the difficulty in getting off the stuff.

Here is the AMA's submission to the Parliamentary inquiry into E-cigarettes.
Quickstatus, I hesitate to respond more here, as this is a topic that starts with almost everyone polarized, and thus any debate is usually counter-productive.

I can only truly work within my own life experience. An important aspect of that is that I do not judge others. I understand that people each have their own experiences, their own view, on everything. And that is why I am very hesitant to judge them. I have been exposed to so many different points of view, norms, that you eventually realise that these same are innumerable, and none fundamentally more holy than the rest.

A central part of my own beliefs is something that has been fostered in me due to my work. It is a focus on realities as opposed to ideals. I do truly love great ideas. i rejoice in hope. But I also have experienced, time and time again, the difficulties, or impossibilities, of making these ideas real. And I also see constantly the focus on some idea that is so overcoming that it makes the person focussed unable to see anything outside that small narrow position....

I have never been able to converse with any non-smoker or ex-smoker about any topic relating to nicotine use without them expressing to me that "nicotine is addictive!". It appears that this is a very important point that they need to get across, that they need to conquer me with. Can you perhaps understand the boredom, the sheer affront, that I could take there? I knew this fact many decades ago, yet it is constantly thrown up as if I denied or was unaware of this. This invariably sets a tedious backdrop to any attempt at conversation.

Can we please leave aside the addiction issue here - I recognize it for that already - but in my philosophy that is not unhealthy per se. That is a philosophical discussion, and one I am sure most are unprepared to have....

I understand from your post many hesitances regarding ecigs. "Very poor outcome evidence as an aid in smoking cessation". There are two sides to this to start with. The first is that for some unbelievable reason the use of e-cigs is equated with smoking. In fact the name is something enforced to try to support this. That is nonsensical. The first involves a supply of certain compounds in a clinical vaporised form, the second involves burning leaves and myriad other things into a high-temperature soup of carcinogens.

Nicotine does not kill people. Not in this sort of recreational usage. It is not carcinogenic. Etc Etc Etc. Yes, when used as a concentrate as a pesticide (the compound was created as a substance that formed a natural protection) it is obviously poisonous, as are so many things we use each day. But the actual health effects on someone who uses nicotine recreationally (when separated from the effects of tar and tobacco smoke) are no more negative or costly than drinking tea or coffee.

It has been the means of using it, ie smoking, that has brought the health toll.

Every single means that has been thought of has been brought to bear to reduce tobacco use. Australia is now officially the most expensive place in the world to buy a cigarette. I am sure that many anti=tobacco people would feel proud of this fact. Smug satisfaction. But what is the reality? There is a percentage of people out there in the lower socio-economic realms, that have just simply not managed to "quit". I am not one of them. I enjoy a certain level of affluence above them, and my desire for nicotine is for different reasons. But I understand their plight, because I know them. Those still smoking do so for a couple of reasons. The main one is that they live in a difficult world, a hopeless one, and getting some sort of chemical feeling of good is one of the few things that keeps them going every day. They need this as they are those that live the rear-guard role in Australian life. They are at the back. They are not people who are at the top of the tree. In any way. They are exactly where they are due to society. It is a reality that parts of society dabble in "drugs" to cope and feel better each day. Now, after the crusade against smoking, or rather, smokers, it is these poor people who are finally left. They know that smoking is not good for them. (I am sure there will still be people loudly advising them that nicotine is addictive! :) ) But that is their lot.

E-cigs are a product that removes almost all the health negatives. Yes they do! The current status in research is that ecigs are almost harmless - the negatives are all just potential - ie not yet known. Pretty much everything. These poor people can still have a hit each day of something that is mild but feels good. But they will not die of cancer, or lung disease. But the opponents do not want this an an option?? Because it is "unknown" what the health effects could be??? For Christ's sake!!

Quickstatus, you refer to the use of ecigs "exploding". That intrigues me. I agree completely that in many countries the use of e-cigs is increasing - but, and this is a HUGE BUT, the people that are taliking up e-cigs are smokers.

I have researched this whole thing very carefully. I love that the use of ecigs is increasing. But it is ex-smokers taking it up. That is a great thing. I am unaware of any research that actually gives legs to this notion of ecigs "normalising" smoking behaviour. And for Christ's sake, this whole fear of the demon of "smoking tobacco" being normalized? I have daughters in Unis and it appears that most students are trying almost everything under the sun. And some people are worrying about "normalization of smoking" ???

Last comment. regarding methadone. I am not supporting or attacking the idea. But I do know so very well, in real terms and not ideas, what the reality of a drug-user is. It means at least one or two house break=ins per day to steal enough stuff to support their habit. So maybe methadone does not remove magically the addiction of a bad person. But every single day that a drug addict is on methadone and not buying drugs, it is a household or two that is not absolutely violated by the fact of being invaded and robbed.
 

tgh

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An outstanding defense of the indefensible…. :p:p

All us perfect people just wish you would join us and live forever….

and why is defense un acceptable to the computer god when indefensible is…..
 

Bundy Bear

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Another visit to the Dr as I am still not well.

A work colleague asked was I taking enough vitamins and getting enough rest and all those other things to make you healthy, there were some harsh words spoken I was not happy.

Others ask did I really have the flu, had no raised temperature so not that, I wish my ear would clear itself, I can almost live with a lasting cough but not the blocked ear as it effects your balance.
 

Bundy Bear

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Another visit to the Dr another round of tablets, they look stronger.

I was counting the number of tablets in the packet of antibiotics for how many days without alcohol.
 

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