General EV Discussion

[prozac]

Personal view based on extrapolating current trends. Not necessarily the view of an employer.

To be clear, I don't think they will be cheaper to repair than today. Claims inflation is still going to hurt for a couple of years yet, given that for parts, as a nation, we are essentially a price taker, not a price maker. If the Aussie Dollar starts to improve, then this may mitigate a bit.

I do, however, think they will be cheaper to insure than equivalent ICE models. For a couple of reasons.

First, I think that, whilst there have been supply chain issues for both ICEs and EVs, these have disproportionately impacted EVs. This will (well, SHOULD) unwind over the next few years which will ease insurance premium inflation for EVs more than ICEs.

Second, there is a relative scarcity of EV-experienced repairers at the moment, particularly in certain geographic locations. Supply and demand means that the ones that are there can charge a further margin over their ICE-equivalent repairers, especially if you effectively have no other competition in your area. This gets fed back to the insurer, who feeds it back to the customer. As more and more repairers become EV savvy, this will increase competition amongst repairers, which will drive down those margins and reduce cost to the insurer/insureds.

Third, the mix of claims is changing over time. Improvements in autonomous driving features, disproportionately represented on EVs relative to ICEs, is meaningfully reducing the frequency of certain types of collision claims, thus reducing the premiums disproportionately for EVs. Meanwhile, weather related claims are increasing significantly. But weather claims are more likely to be panel only damage than collision claims. And for panel only damage it doesn't really make as much of a difference whether the car is ICE or EV.

Therefore, I expect that inflation in insurance premiums for ICE cars will outstrip that for EVs.

With the increasing rate at which new model EVs are being introduced to the market I don't think parts will be held for EV's older than 6-7 yrs and so insurance rates will escalate. Before Holden ceased production in Australia it became impossible to obtain some parts off the shelf and it was necessary to wait until enough orders were placed before Holden would initiate a production run.

 

[Gremlin]

With the increasing rate at which new model EVs are being introduced to the market I don't think parts will be held for EV's older than 6-7 yrs and so insurance rates will escalate. Before Holden ceased production in Australia it became impossible to obtain some parts off the shelf and it was necessary to wait until enough orders were placed before Holden would initiate a production run.

TBH, I see this increasingly as more of an issue for the ICEs that they are supplanting than EVs. Certainly in the insurance portfolio I’m most familiar with, albeit early days as yet. But you may be right on the very early models, especially those that proved unpopular.

Bear in mind that older vehicles, whether ICEs or EVs, are less likely to be comprehensively insured. And there’s very few early model EVs in total. Certainly, if you’re trying to comprehensively insure a 2011 Mitsubishi i-Miev then you might expect to pay over the odds due to difficulty in sourcing parts. No real evidence of that for early model Nissan Leafs though.

 

[Quickstatus]

Improvements in autonomous driving features, disproportionately represented on EVs relative to ICEs, is meaningfully reducing the frequency of certain types of collision claims, thus reducing the premiums disproportionately for EVs

More pie in the sky. There has been no improvements in autonomous driving features - just a lot of hyperbole from the RocketMan. I would say that the current Tesla driver assistance features is poorer than my VW. It remains to be seen whether autonomous driving will actually improve claims. That will be sometime away (decades) away because full autonomous driving should means the driver can sit in the back seat while drinking a beer. Until then...

 

[moa999]

Tesla has some pretty long term data collection of crash rates with/ without AP

https://www.tesla.com/en_au/VehicleSafetyReport

And whilst it certainly still has quirks (and the recent NHTSA enforced nags are annoying) in rain or bad light it is amazing in identifying and staying exactly in the middle of lines.

 

[Gremlin]

More pie in the sky. There has been no improvements in autonomous driving features - just a lot of hyperbole from the RocketMan. I would say that the current Tesla driver assistance features is poorer than my VW. It remains to be seen whether autonomous driving will actually improve claims. That will be sometime away (decades) away because full autonomous driving should means the driver can sit in the back seat while drinking a beer. Until then...

Okay.

There is more than enough insurance data to understand the relative claims performance of cars fitted/not fitted with autonomous features, and to differentiate between the crash likelihood of different implementations by brand.

Full autonomous is absolutely a long way away, but there is a discernible difference between cars with Level 0/1 and those with Level 2 (particularly for the brands that do it better) in terms of claims experience for certain types of collision.

If you think insurers are noting this difference and not using it to differentiate price, then I've a bridge to sell you...

 

[tgh]

Hmmm it pains me to admit.. but.. over the last few years I have almost always been ahead of my collision avoidance alarm .
Almost always is sadly not good enough and it has probably saved my bacon at least once….
Having said that it has never actuated.. just blared...

 

[Quickstatus]

If you think insurers are noting this difference and not using it to differentiate price, then I've a bridge to sell you...

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is the assumption that there is currently a difference is pie in the sky. You don't know I don't know. Again no one but the insurers are privy to what drives the premium pricing. So we are just speculating - oftejn laced with a healthy dose of bias toward a preferred narrative.

Likely the profit motive is a significant part of it as well

 

[Gremlin]

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is the assumption that there is currently a difference is pie in the sky. You don't know I don't know. Again no one but the insurers are privy to what drives the premium pricing. So we are just speculating - oftejn laced with a healthy dose of bias toward a preferred narrative.

Likely the profit motive is a significant part of it as well

You've just asserted that I don't know. This is an area that I, in fact, know quite intimately. And I agree that no one but the insurers are privy to what drives premium pricing. As I said earlier in this thread though, the views expressed here are mine, not those of an employer.

Also you're right, in the sense that there's both profit and growth objectives liberally sprinkled through any pricing algorithm (and each insurer will have their own differing ambitions in terms of where they want to target/not target), but that doesn't change what drives the underlying risk premium.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

BYD to overtake TESLA

 

[clifford]

BYD to overtake TESLA

And?

 

[moa999]

BYD had always been a larger car manufacturer than Tesla (mostly ICE cars and hybrids in China) but are switching to electric far quicker than any of the US, Euro or Japanese manufacturers.

And using it to gain massive market share globally.

The larger manufacturers like Ford, GM, VW or Toyota should be far more concerned about BYD, Geely (Inc Volvo, Polestar and Zeekr), Cherry, SAIC, Nio, Xpeng (or about a dozen others) than Tesla.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

BYD Atto 3 vs Tesla Model Y specs comparison | RACV

Medium SUV shoppers are spoilt for choice when it comes to electric options. Here we compare the popular BYD Atto 3 and Tesla Model Y to see which one makes sense for you.

www.racv.com.au

 

[Cruiser Elite]

As for insurance rates / comparison NFI - I will talk to our insurers ASAP and report back - temporary cover was all that was required ATPIT

Finally had a convo with Insurance Brokers yesterday - jeez they take extended Chrissy break!

FWIW advice from them was that insurance rates on EVs approx 20 to 50% higher than ICEs dependent on model and garaging location - some can even be 100% higher with slant to TESLA being higher premiums - make of that what you can - or not

 

[elanshin]

Finally had a convo with Insurance Brokers yesterday - jeez they take extended Chrissy break!

FWIW advice from them was that insurance rates on EVs approx 20 to 50% higher than ICEs dependent on model and garaging location - some can even be 100% higher with slant to TESLA being higher premiums - make of that what you can - or not

I think thats partly due to the higher repair costs if they need to be repaired. Hertz wqs saying that repair costs were one of the main reasons they're pausing their EV program and offloading all their EVs fron rental.

 

[MikeG]

I recently test drove a Tesla model Y and a BMW i4. For similar money the BMW is SOOOOO much bang per buck. Comparing apple with apples, base model sing motor version, the Tesla is only around $65k but the build quality feels like a $45k car. The entry level BMW i4 is $89k but the build quality is exceptional, and the whole experience is more traditional and not relying on a single tablet interface in the centre of the dash.

Though my concern is that BMW is tending to follow Telstra down the rabbit hole with many of the latest cars removing fan controls etc and integrating that into the infotainment system. Nooooo!!!

 

[moa999]

Hertz is selling a bunch of Tesla's in the US, but they've done 100k+ km which would be the normal time they sell them. They've been caught more out on Tesla reducing the US pricing of new cars since they bought them (Tesla hiked prices over Covid due to input prices that have since reduced) - so suffering greater depreciation than expected.

But they are still keeping a lot and continuing to purchase new models. They've also started having Tesla install private Superchargers at airport and other hire sites, something they should have done in the first place.

Insurance is interesting.
The last three years I've got similar pricing on my 3 SR+ to a similarly priced BMW/ Merc sedan, but noting lots of posts on Tesla FB forums about big increases this year (don't renew until mid year)

(The Tesla forums are funny in this as the brand seems to attract a lot of people trading up, and are then seem surprised that insurance is more expensive than a 10yo Corolla)

On actual parts Tesla seems to be pretty reasonable compared to the Euro manufacturers based on quotes I have seen for things like bumpers and mirrors, but seemingly suffering growing pains with a lack of authorised repair shops (increases wait times) and some supply of parts issues (albeit that only impacts insurance if you have hire car coverage, and that's often limited).

Think the other issue for all EVs is that in medium speed collisions there is a higher chance of a write-off as the frame can impact the battery which is a $15k+ part plus labour. Generally no battery issues in your more common low speed impacts.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Why Teslas Are Dying in Chicago’s Freezing Cold Weather

Tow trucks and long lines at charging stations are common sights this winter for EV owners—and the reason has to do with the batteries.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[moa999]

Thankfully temps we won't likely see locally.

OutOfSpec (a big EV YTer) has done a video on it.

It's even worse if you're not driving a Tesla due to third party chargers not even working.

But you do see less dramatic impacts locally at some Superchargers over winter with people complaining about slow speeds (on a cold winters day you ideally want to be pre-heating a battery for 30+ minutes before fast charging)

 

[Quickstatus]

Its not enough that Tesla is the only Ev manufacturer to build Supercharging.
There should chargers in car parks, apartment buildings workplaces - anywhere cars are parked for a significant period of time
And other EV manufacturers should also help to build charging stations.

Govts should not provide incentives to buy an EV - the money should be used toward providing incentives to build charging stations - an lots of them

 

[OZDUCK]

Its not enough that Tesla is the only Ev manufacturer to build Supercharging.
There should chargers in car parks, apartment buildings workplaces - anywhere cars are parked for a significant period of time
And other EV manufacturers should also help to build charging stations.

Govts should not provide incentives to buy an EV - the money should be used toward providing incentives to build charging stations - an lots of them

Here is a chance for you to put forward that view to Parliament

Parliamentary inquiry to examine impact of electric cars in Australia

A parliamentary committee is seeking submissions for an inquiry into how Australia can support the increasing popularity of EVs.

www.carexpert.com.au