General EV Discussion

[elanshin]

Do you like your X1? If so, why not an iX1? MIL just got one to replace her X1 (think her old one was MY15?) and she loves it.

iX1 is ok, but value for money as well as efficiency, Tesla just has it beat. Its also smaller internally than the model Y.

Even looking at other options, for similar prices kia EV6 is in the ballpark too and that also is more compelling and personally looks better. Just hard to get a hold of one.

 

[Gremlin]

iX1 is ok, but value for money as well as efficiency, Tesla just has it beat. Its also smaller internally than the model Y.

Even looking at other options, for similar prices kia EV6 is in the ballpark too and that also is more compelling and personally looks better. Just hard to get a hold of one.

Fair comments. We definitely considered the EV6, but well nigh impossible to get meant it got ruled out pretty quick.

 

[VPS]

At work we run a fleet of Toyota Camry Hybrids but due to Toyota’s lousy supply we had to get a Kia Niro hybrid. We get a range of results of between 4.0 to 5.6 litres per 100 kms. The wide variation is caused by the driver and whether the vehicle is used in the city or country.
Because our warehouse/offices have large roof spaces we can use that space to go solar to get the charging for almost nothing.
We do have to get over range anxiety but I am used to having a 700 kms range in our current 3 hybrid vehicles that we have at home.
i have said that i could reduce that range to 560kms but Mrscove thinks i would be ok with sub 400 kms range.
i did buy Eagers shares which is APE on ASX as they are selling BYD vehicles that are number one in electric vehicles in the world.

I'm looking for a hybrid - how do you rate the Kia Niro?

 

[Quickstatus]

My point was if your Ebike goes flat, its not as serious as if your Ecar goes flat with your kids and the luggage inside.

If the EV goes flat it is not for want of charging facilities. It will be due to poor planning. And the planning is actually very easy. Obviously dont drive to where there is no charging...
There are currently some places in Australia - mainly outback Australia where there is no charging
But even the many Nullabor Roadhouses have 3phase outlets - and yes Teslas have done the Nullabor.

Melbourne to Mildura tick
Adelaide to Alice springs to Darwin tick

Canning stock route No

This fellow did the Big lap round Australia in a Model 3 - never got stranded due to flat battery:
Nullabor? No problem
The green teardrops are where he charged along the way

BEV are not for everyone, but they are becoming more mainstream

 

[Quickstatus]

,there are power plans with lower off peak rates at 8 cents/kw

Check the fine print - the 8c/KW is kWh capped
But it is a recognition that even with solar most people charge the EV at night
They get it back with the other parts of the electricity plan so for me that OVO plan is not competitive in an overall sense

 

[Cruiser Elite]

This may be of interest to those not already subscribed - CNET CARS.

 

[moa999]

Tesla's likely hold value for resell a bit better than some of the other vehicles as they're a bit more mature and just more refined vehicle today.

They certainly did over the shortage period 2021/22 and introduction of the Y, with many selling locally at a premium.
Now I think they are getting close to a normal depreciation, but still better than a Euro sedan.

(And it's not helped by Tesla dropping that AUD price a few times and government incentives appearing)

Insurance is also another to consider. There is a still a lot of variation in Tesla's but most seem to be able to get something similar to an equivalent priced Euro sedan/ SUV, but it is an extra cost if moving up from a cheaper vehicle.

 

[moa999]

the EV goes flat it is not for want of charging facilities.

Absolutely.
There are at more 10A power points than petrol stations..and in general the charging meter and trip planner in an EV is far more accurate.

And as you say you get used to charging differently. You don't drive the car to 10% and then fuel up.
Instead you top-up evry night on a cheap tariff, or on midday solar, or at your local shopping centre.

The only equivalent is on a longer road trip where you ideally want to arrive at a low state of charge to maximise the charging curve - speed drops as the battery fills.
So rather than filling to the top, it's optimal to only fill to the point you have enough to get to the next charger (+ buffer)

Eg. Inside EV charts for a 2021 Model 3 RWD

 

[exceladdict]

Very interesting, yes I will need to adjust thinking from filling an ICE from empty vs running a battery flat.

Though my understanding is Lithium batteries last longer when the cells are not maxxed out to their top voltage. I need to research how EVs manage this a bit more.

 

[Quickstatus]

Though my understanding is Lithium batteries last longer when the cells are not maxxed out to their top voltage. I need to research how EVs manage this a bit more.

Here are the recommendations:

1) Follow manufacturer charging recommendations
2) See 1 - seriously its that simple
3) If 1 and 2 are followed, battery longevity has less to do with km driven (aka number of battery charges) than the calendar age of the battery

You can actually ignore below in order to successfully maintain a healthy battery

There is a QLD Model S driver who has dome nearly 650,000km on the original battery, and apparently only 12% battery degradation.

..................
Some prefer a bit more specific detail below but this does not supersede the above.....

For Tesla RWD = LFP battery
Manufacturer recommnedations
1)ABC - always be charging
2) Regularly charge to 100% - this is because LFP battery have a very flat voltage to State of charge curve and the battery management system needs a reliable and unique reference voltage point in order to accurately estimately SoC and therefore approximate range. This occurs when V=3.65V. At this voltage the State of Charge (SoC) is typically 100%
3) There are minimal issues charging to 100% in a LFP battery - though it does not necessarily have to be every day - once a week or 2 weeks will be fine

For Tesla AWD = NCMA or similar battery
Manufacturer recommendations
1)ABC - always be charging
2) Daily driving charge to less than 80% SoC. NCMA and similar don't have the issues with battery SoC estimation, so can charge to less than 100%
3) Long range driving - there is no problem charging to 100% but if not needed dont charge to 100%.
4) follow 1-3
5) If charge to 100%. Most people say drive soon after hitting 100% to reduce dwell time at 100%
4)NCMA and similar high nickel batteries don't like hot temps and high SoC.

My charging routine for the Tesla AWD
1)ABC
2) For daily driving I'm charging to whatever SoC that gives me an end of day arrival home SoC of no less than 30%. So currently I am charging to 40-50%
3) I have no hesitation to charge to 100% - when I actually need it. Which I don't.

Daily driving = your usual commuting drive + personal range margin

 

[exceladdict]

Here are the recommendations:

1) Follow manufacturer charging recommendations
2) See 1 - seriously its that simple
3) If 1 and 2 are followed, battery longevity has less to do with km driven (aka number of battery charges) than the calendar age of the battery

You can actually ignore below in order to successfully maintain a healthy battery

There is a QLD Model S driver who has dome nearly 650,000km on the original battery, and apparently only 12% battery degradation.

..................
Some prefer a bit more specific detail below but this does not supersede the above.....

For Tesla RWD = LFP battery
Manufacturer recommnedations
1)ABC - always be charging
2) Regularly charge to 100% - this is because LFP battery have a very flat voltage to State of charge curve and the battery management system needs a reliable and unique reference voltage point in order to accurately estimately SoC and therefore approximate range. This occurs when V=3.65V. At this voltage the State of Charge (SoC) is typically 100%
3) There are minimal issues charging to 100% in a LFP battery - though it does not necessarily have to be every day - once a week or 2 weeks will be fine

For Tesla AWD = NCMA or similar battery
Manufacturer recommendations
1)ABC - always be charging
2) Daily driving charge to less than 80% SoC. NCMA and similar don't have the issues with battery SoC estimation, so can charge to less than 100%
3) Long range driving - there is no problem charging to 100% but if not needed dont charge to 100%.
4) follow 1-3
5) If charge to 100%. Most people say drive soon after hitting 100% to reduce dwell time at 100%
4)NCMA and similar high nickel batteries don't like hot temps and high SoC.

My charging routine for the Tesla AWD
1)ABC
2) For daily driving I'm charging to whatever SoC that gives me an end of day arrival home SoC of no less than 30%. So currently I am charging to 40-50%
3) I have no hesitation to charge to 100% - when I actually need it. Which I don't.

Daily driving = your usual commuting drive + personal range margin

Very helpful, thanks. I am going on past research into mobile phone batteries, but it makes sense that EV batteries are intentionally different. I typically charge my phone to 70-80% to try to increase cycles/longevity; it looks like the battery management systems of vehicles won't allow you enough knowledge to do that.

 

[Quickstatus]

battery management systems of vehicles won't allow you enough knowledge to do that.

Essentially the KISS principle applies. it is either LFP or high nickel. Battery Management as per manufacturer instructions.

 

[BAM1748]

Looking forward to the conversation here when the state govts start in creasing the road taxes for full EVs which nearly all are talking about.

 

[Quickstatus]

Looking forward to the conversation

I think it's a good idea

 

[BAM1748]

I think it's a good idea

The conversation or charging road use charges for EVs.

I’m obviously not so fussed about the environment as when going to lunch in my vehicle BAM1748 we have about 25,000kg worth of carbon emissions.

Only joking I do care greatly for the environment but the carbon emission amount is probably about right.

 

[ayebee]

good topic ... will watch.

My story.

As we got a little bored in March 2020 with Melbourne's first lockdown, thoughts drifted to a replacement for our 20 year old Pajero, and the Outlander PHEV looked interesting, with some limited EV capability for local trips, and petrol hybrid for longer jaunts without any range anxiety.

So in April 2020 we got a 1 yr old (MY19) Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Exceed with 3k on the clock. It had been a Mitsubishi exec car in Adelaide being rolled over. Immaculate condition and about $10k cheaper than a new one at the time.

As a petrol hybrid (no charges) it does around 7.5 litres/100km so not bad for a mid-size SUV, and our lifetime fuel average is 4.8 l/100km, given our mix of local and longer trips.
What sucks is since we bought the car, the Victorian government introduced their EV tax "so we should pay a fraction of what ICE cars pay for excise", but reality is we are slugged both ways, paying both fuel excise and the 2.2 c/km charge resulting in us paying way more than a straight hybrid.
Putting that annoyance aside the vehicle was performing well.

Then on 26 June this year my son advised he was having issues.
We were in Europe (I did a trip report on our canal self drive ... ) and he said the car was advising "EV System service required, RBS service required, ACC service required" and it was would not start or charge.
mmmmmm
I adviced to get it to the dealer, and an RACV tow to the nearest Mitsubishi dealer ensued.

They started diagnosing the problem in consultation with Mitsubishi Australia.
After a couple of weeks it was agreed the battery needed replacing and that was done around 27 July.
One month down.
The battery was then charging OK, but the car would not start ... more investigation needed.
On 16 August they rang to advise the fault was isolated to the "driver's seat control module". (One assumes it does more than control the seat position to stop the car starting, but maybe part of a chain of checks the main computer does on startup.)
They thought it fried as the battery shorted, or whatever.
So then it was a matter of getting the part, installing, testing etc etc and it was ready for collection 23 August.
That is over 8 weeks.

Anyway, the car seems to be running very nicely now and we have a new battery, and it was all done under warranty .
Note this model PHEV is only 12kWhrs (which makes the Victorian tax at 80% of "pure" EVs even more ludicrous.)

The Service guy at the dealer was genuinely helpful, and advised they would book over 40 hours of labour.
It was the first case they had seen and as far as he knew the first battery replacement of this model in Victoria.
However, you would expect Mitsubishi head office would have a bit more expertise to fix something like this is less than 2 months.
Much of the delay seemed to be getting Mitsubishi Australia to agree on part replacements under warranty, but that is conjecture.
I have no idea what the part costs were of the new battery and "driver's seat control module" might be, but I am guessing the costs would have been $12k+.

 

[Quickstatus]

Check the fine print - the 8c/KW is kWh capped

Apparently not. Other forums suggest no cap based on screenshot of am email provided to a customer.

The conversation or charging road use charges for EVs.

The tax
There should be a road users tax for all cars

 

[elanshin]

New Tesla Model 3 is now officially unveiled. Haven't gone over the changes yet. Will check the various EV news sources.

Edit: carwow link

 

[cove]

Well @VPS we got a manager into a Kia Niro GT Hybrid and he loves it. We had waited 2 years for a Camry SL hybrid and switched to get the Kia inside a week.

 

[Quickstatus]

changes

Increase in "range" - the WLTP kind. So no real world testing yet due to Drag coefficient 0.219 - helps mostly in highway, so I reckon daily city driving range not significantly affected

Battery and motors same

Wind noise reduces due to acoustic glass all round

2 motors in the boot lid

Perforated and ventilated seats necessary because the blokes that drive them are always sweaty, but that's mainly because of the "vegan leather" - AKA vinyl seats

New rear touchscreen with entertainment apps

Centre screen improvement???. Whatever that means

65W USBc for laptop power in centre console

Ultra wideband Bluetooth

better microphones, now 1 on each side

No steering wheel stalks, functions incorporated into steering wheel.

There is a steering wheel which implies Full self driving is not yeta reality