Frequent Flyer Number Ethics

[Cyclogenesis]

The Australian Public Service Code of Conduct states that FF point can be accrued by APS employees but can only be used for official purposes.

Many of my colleagues are SG or WP.. and the agency likes it as it saves money on QP fees.

 

[craven morehead]

Upgrade points deduction

I upgraded fron Y to J last Oct BNE - MEL
I was led to believe it would cost me 12000 points but Qantas still are yet to take them from my FF account. How long does it normally take? :mrgreen:

 

[Hvr]

The Australian Public Service Code of Conduct states that FF point can be accrued by APS employees but can only be used for official purposes.

Many of my colleagues are SG or WP.. and the agency likes it as it saves money on QP fees.

My agency has a very strict policy that FF points must not be accrued under any circumstances. If you do it may be treated as a breach of the code of conduct which as public servants know can be fatal to your career.

I've just skimmed through the posts here, so sorry if this already been said.

This is an issue which always comes up in Govt. circles, and unless agencies are receiving all the paperwork for their employees who are members of schemes - it's neigh on impossible for them to track and prevent this.

The reason why earning points/rewards from govt. travel is discouraged as this can be used by employees as an excuse for not choosing the best fare of the day in order to gain a personal advantage - thus increasing the costs of travel without good reason.

So, if the company/employer doesn't have;

• a specific policy from earning rewards from travel, and
• systems to track and enforce the policy;

and the price of the fare is comparable to other carriers on the route, add your membership number to your booking with wild abandon using the appropriate method for the carrier in question.

And if it's a client who's paid for the fare, just add the membership number anyway. If you get quizzed on it, simply say it was added by the airline who wanted to make sure you received the class of service and recognition you're entitled to with them.

Final note: Let's be honest, most of us in the public service work for agencies where we get bent over backwards and hardly see any extra reward or recognition for our work - so I consider the ability to earn points for govt. travel a small and nice infrequent perk, and will grab them when I've got the chance. Stuff 'em.

IMHO it's not worth the risk, I am allowed to accumulate SCs but not FF points. Works for me and I don't have to worry about keeping them separate.


Let's be honest here, the APS generally pays pretty well, both in wages and benefits such as training/education. People who think they aren't being paid well really do need to work in the private sector for awhile to get a grip on the realities of the workplace. If you want recognition and praise get a pet (or maybe a spouse/partner). cough bosses are everywhere and not getting told I am doing a good job, whilst frustrating isn't worth losing my job over by committing fraud.

Medhead wrote: Of course, if it is a government department then it's not as if you can really ask them their policy on this type of thing.

Not sure if you mistyped here but any and every agency has to make these types of policies public when asked. Especially to current and potential employees. After all it is wrong to expect people to abide by rules they don't know about.

To respond to the OPs question, I would not put my FF number on the booking until you have had a chance to ask someone there the question. Then they should tell you the policy and what you can and cannot do re FF points etc. Would it be worth missing out on a job for a few thousand points?

 

[straitman]

Not sure if you mistyped here but any and every agency has to make these types of policies public when asked. Especially to current and potential employees. After all it is wrong to expect people to abide by rules they don't know about.

To respond to the OPs question, I would not put my FF number on the booking until you have had a chance to ask someone there the question. Then they should tell you the policy and what you can and cannot do re FF points etc. Would it be worth missing out on a job for a few thousand points?

If it is a company rather than government there SHOULD be no issue however if in doubt or it is government then I would do one of the following:

1. Ask them what their policy is and put the number in if appropriate, or
2. put in the number and don't tell them or
3. put in a retrospective claim and don't tell them.

Personally I would do #1.

 

[albatross710]

Re: Upgrade points deduction

I upgraded fron Y to J last Oct BNE - MEL
I was led to believe it would cost me 12000 points but Qantas still are yet to take them from my FF account. How long does it normally take? :mrgreen:

They usually debit the account on the same day if not in overnight processing.

I wouldn't be reminding them.

 

[medhead]

Not sure if you mistyped here but any and every agency has to make these types of policies public when asked. Especially to current and potential employees. After all it is wrong to expect people to abide by rules they don't know about.

No it wasn't a mistype. yes governments have to tell you the policy on request. But asking the qeustion is then going to lead to questions. Why is he asking about our FF policy? We're interviewing this guy to work for us and the first thing he thinks of is not the work but getting something out of his flight?

IMO that is a bad look. Also once you ask about the policy then you have to follow it. whereas if you just do it and they pull you up it is easy to act apologetic and innocent. the last thing I would suggest doing is asking the policy. Besides the OP is not an employee, policy doesn't apply until they sign up.

 

[dajop]

No it wasn't a mistype. yes governments have to tell you the policy on request. But asking the qeustion is then going to lead to questions. Why is he asking about our FF policy? We're interviewing this guy to work for us and the first thing he thinks of is not the work but getting something out of his flight?

IMO that is a bad look. Also once you ask about the policy then you have to follow it. whereas if you just do it and they pull you up it is easy to act apologetic and innocent. the last thing I would suggest doing is asking the policy. Besides the OP is not an employee, policy doesn't apply until they sign up.

+1 to that. Just looks bad. Easy to be apologetics, especially if asked the OP can say it was more about lounge access than points or anything like that. Also it may not be an employer issue at all, not sure of the circumstances but if being arranged through a recruitment firm, they may well be picking up the airfare and oncharging it.

 

[NM]

Re: Upgrade points deduction

I upgraded fron Y to J last Oct BNE - MEL
I was led to believe it would cost me 12000 points but Qantas still are yet to take them from my FF account. How long does it normally take? :mrgreen:

usually the removal of points form the account is the first indication that the upgrade has been successful. So if not removed before the flight, it would appear your upgrade was free.

 

[sunbeamrapier]

Hmmm, I love these ethical dilemmas!

Firstly, the Frequent Flyer programme, as run by Qantas, rewards the passenger, not the individual or company buying the ticket. I have heard of other programs where points are pooled and used by the organisation - but I have not heard that Qantas runs such a programme. Secondly, the programme is designed (at least in principle) to alert Qantas staff to those of its customers who fly with them a lot.

If the company is buying the ticket, and choosing the airline, and you have no influence on this decision, then there is no corruption or ethical concern here.

However, unless the company has a policy of not allowing FF points to be used by staff on company-booked flights, and they are booking the flight on your behalf (and they do this often) one would expect that they would ask you up-front for your FF number in the course of conversation with you about the flight arrangements. If they have not done so it could be that they disallow FF on company travel, or it could be that they are rushed, or inexperienced, or thoughtless.

If the company has such a policy, and regularly books flights for staff, then they should notify you of this at the time of booking your flight: existing employees would be aware of such a policy and it should be in the employee handbook, but unless the company has already issued you with this handbook, or notified you of their policy, then you could not be aware of it.

Since you can add your FF points at a later date by retaining your boarding pass, you could adopt a cautious approach: fly to the interview and wait until you know whether you get the job. If you do get the job, you can ask about their policy on FF points and company travel when you start work and then claim your FF points, or not, depending on the policy. If you don't get the job then you can claim the FF points as soon as you know you will not be joining them.

If, by some chance, you are asked at check-in if you are a Frequent Flyer, then you should say yes and provide your number unless you have been specifically advised by the company not to do so. The onus is on the company here to advise you of their policy, if they have one, since anyone booking flights should be aware that a passenger can add their FF details at any time before the flight, and for some time after.

If it were me I would just do it. Its reversible. If I were challenged by the company after the event, I would offer to ask Qantas to remove the FF number, points and credits, but suggest that the company tighten their procedures to avoid embarrassment to potential employees who are unaware of their policy.

 

[geoffl]

Certainly not unethical, but, could well send a message to your prospective employer that you are thinking more about benefits than the job, ie, already working all the angles.

 

[dajop]

Certainly not unethical, but, could well send a message to your prospective employer that you are thinking more about benefits than the job, ie, already working all the angles.

I would have thought it's only going to send a message if it is actually raised with the company. If it's not raised and simply added at checkin (when asked by QF check in agent), the company is for a start not likely to even find out about it or even if they do somehow can easily be explained away by the check-in story, hardly working all the angles. If they do really kick up a monumental fuss about it - well perhaps that's a company that's not worth working for.

 

[sunbeamrapier]

Certainly not unethical, but, could well send a message to your prospective employer that you are thinking more about benefits than the job, ie, already working all the angles.

Yep, it could - though I am not sure if there is any mechanism is in place to notify the purchaser that a FF number has been added to the flight. You can wait until after the interview if this bothers you. Unless there is a policy in place, however, I can't imagine anyone caring whether you do or don't add your FF number. If they did care, they would have asked for your FF number when they booked the flight - or told you it was contrary to policy to use it... Unless its an expensive flight its going to be a minor benefit anyway.

 

[tuapekastar]

Unless there is a policy in place, however, I can't imagine anyone caring whether you do or don't add your FF number.

I think you have it in a nutshell here. I doubt the company gives a toss about FF points, they're just buying a plane ticket for someone. They will likely not know nor care about any FF points earned by the OP (I reserve the right to be wrong ).

 

[jonesy]

is that all you guys think about - sex? err... I mean points!!!

What about the advantage of priority check in, lounge access, preferred seating, dietary requirement, and priority luggage on this trip?

A good potential employer would ask for you FF details to ensure you have a pleasant trip (even if they didn't allow you to keep the points).

 

[Amberlower]

If you're worried about it - you can always do it retro-actively. If you get the job - won't matter, and if you don't - who cares?

 

[Sprucegoose]

Hi All,


Is it unethical to add my FF number to the booking now that I have the QF reference number? How would you handle it from both my situation and the potential employer?????

Paul,

I am sorry I dont follow you. Where is the unethical issue in adding a FF number?

Is it usual business ettiqutte? No harm whatsoever. No cost to your potential employer and an indirect benefit to you.

A public service job?

Cheers SPRUCE

 

[medhead]

is that all you guys think about - sex? err... I mean points!!!

What about the advantage of priority check in, lounge access, preferred seating, dietary requirement, and priority luggage on this trip?

A good potential employer would ask for you FF details to ensure you have a pleasant trip (even if they didn't allow you to keep the points).

You get all your benefits by showing your FF card so ithe number doesn't need to be on the booking. I also had the experience when working for the NSW government (not NSW health), whose policy was no points but can earn SC, of adding my FF number and getting credited with SC only. That was automatic in the system.

I have children, so I'm only allowed to think about points.

 

[letsgo]

The only valid ethical argument I've seen so far where it might be improper to claim points is the situation where you can influence which airline you choose, so you choose the more expensive one where you happen to have FF membership, to the financial detriment of your employer. If the employer objects, fair enough.

However it's relatively insignificant in free graft compared with the apparently innocuous choice of some of my work colleagues who have a choice of whom to fly (usually QF vs Virgin). They choose QF each time because of free muffins / food & coffee - OK you can get expenses back on a business trip with receipts from Virgin but what a PITA. So the y choose what's more expensive for the company but easier for them. No FF points involved whatsoever.
On most flights I suggest free food in the hand is worth more than points "in the bush". So if companies or government departments are really going to worry about you getting extras for nothing they should issue you a sandwich & thermos when you fly on their behalf.

 

[PineappleSkip]

This strikes me as the biggest non issue going.

I don't see any relevance of employee/staff policies - a prospective employee is not an employee - no contract of employment on foot.

They only ways I could see a would be employee being denied points are either the employer has a 'no points accrual' agreement with QF and books the travel - so you get no points despite a FF number - or they contract with the prospective employee about the interview - seems pretty unlikely. Apart from that I see no way the would be employer can regulate your dealings with QF.

Incidentally my (very conservative)(govt) employer has a deal with QF whereby staff don't get points for official travel, whatever the fare basis, and this is supposedly taken into account in working out the contract fare and the reason we've been given is as much economic as getting arond the ethical dilemma. I think this is now pretty common.

Whie they have a "no manipulating things to get benefits" requirement, as would any govt dept, they also have a "status credits are OK" policy and that makes sense also. If you legitimately travel enough on official travel to get SG or better status it would seem perfectly reasonable to sit in the lounge. Its there to make life more bearable for frequent travellers.The benefit of a free drink and some bikkies and cheese is hardly of significance.

Cheers skip

 

[medhead]

So if companies or government departments are really going to worry about you getting extras for nothing they should issue you a sandwich & thermos when you fly on their behalf.

Yet and government departments do issue those things, via a thing called an allowance.

This strikes me as the biggest non issue going.

I don't see any relevance of employee/staff policies - a prospective employee is not an employee - no contract of employment on foot.

Totally, agree with you in relation to the OP's case. Not employed = no restriction.

But in general this sort of thing is far from a non-issue. It is little things like this that get people sack for corruption, especially if there is a particularly vindictive HR/management person involved.