Fog in SYD

[markis10]

View from my apartment yesterday

 

[Ewing]

View from my apartment yesterday

And down in the trenches (on Tuesday):

 

[TheRealTMA]

Well. Finally back to Brisbane 30 hrs after leaving SFO. We sat on Tarmac for 3 hrs in MEL and they got a new air crew since others had run out of hrs, then by 10 am the cabin staff also had run up their max 20 hrs so they could not fly us up to SYD. So three and a bit hrs after landing in MEL we were disembarked.

Seemed to be total chaos at baggage collection with all priority luggage coming of seemingly last. Surely the priority luggage is in its own baggage cart on the plane?

Also chaos since bags were building up on carousel so that we bags could not fit. After sever complaints to Qantas by priority psg and others, despite saying they could do nothing and it was all unexpected (LOL) a Qantas person finally started to remove luggage off the carousel so new stuff could fit.

Several psg were getting a quite annoyed but in reality in such situations what can one actually do but just wait.

They got us on new flt to BNE so we probably arrived quicker than we would have if they had taken us into the real chaos at Sydney airport. Of course since priority luggage on the BNE flt was loaded last, it sat in the rain for some 20 mins so bags were soaked by time we collected them in BNE and of my collected magazines and notes in the top layers soaked as well. (Why can't thy load luggage under some cover?)

Can someone explain why a 'modern' international airport such as Sydney international and the most significant in the country can't land planes in fog? Safety yes but in Europe they would never get away with it. Also in Europe it would cost the airlines a fortune under EU rules for delay and missed connections.


Need some big winds in SYD to clear fog for the rest of the week!

 

[jb747]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

No such thing, while its a tad shorter than 07/25, its capable of handling up to A380s as far as length and RFF facilities go with over 2.4km of LDA.

Not quite. It's not listed as available to us. 16L has an LDA of 2200 metres, whilst 34R is 2400 m. A look at the performance application shows that 16L has a bare 80 metres spare, in calm conditions, and is immediately too short with even one knot of downwind. I considered it too short for the 767, so I'm not likely to throw a 380 at it.

 

[markis10]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Not quite. It's not listed as available to us. 16L has an LDA of 2200 metres, whilst 34R is 2400 m. A look at the performance application shows that 16L has a bare 80 metres spare, in calm conditions, and is immediately too short with even one knot of downwind. I considered it too short for the 767, so I'm not likely to throw a 380 at it.

No worries, a later post explained it was a QF ruling as opposed to a general thing and it arose because of 128 making a landing.

 

[jb747]

Well. Finally back to Brisbane 30 hrs after leaving SFO. We sat on Tarmac for 3 hrs in MEL and they got a new air crew since others had run out of hrs, then by 10 am the cabin staff also had run up their max 20 hrs so they could not fly us up to SYD. So three and a bit hrs after landing in MEL we were disembarked.

I was on a day off, and the phone rang at about 6:20. The FO and SO were both at a hotel in town, and finishing a Dubai/London. We actually arrived from different directions at the same time, and were waiting at the bay when the aircraft parked.

Sadly, QF12 wasn't the only aircraft to divert. The mix of domestic delays and long haul diversions resulted in aircraft waiting for long periods on the tarmac, and Melbourne simply didn't have anywhere to park them. And then the refuelling people needed to be at a zillion aircraft, all at once, and that too took quite a while. Whilst a few members of the cabin crew could be replaced by standby crews, there would never be a full crew available at a moments notice.

Several psg were getting a quite annoyed but in reality in such situations what can one actually do but just wait.

As I found out first hand. I was going to try to have them beamed up, but the transporter was out of service. Scottie is working on it.

Can someone explain why a 'modern' international airport such as Sydney international and the most significant in the country can't land planes in fog? Safety yes but in Europe they would never get away with it. Also in Europe it would cost the airlines a fortune under EU rules for delay and missed connections.

It's a combination of issues. Firstly, I think the Australian authorities have always tried to avoid spending the money, because the costs of the delays are not borne by them, but rather by the airlines. In the EU, I think you'll find that the rules rule out compensation for anything of an equivalent nature. Weather is not an act of the airlines. Secondly, I think they were hoping technology would come to their rescue and make any expenditure unnecessary. Initially we were promised the joys of MLS, and later GLS. GLS does actually exist, and you can do a GLS autoland in Sydney, but it's under trial, and the minima is a quite useless 2,000 feet. I've never even bothered looking at it.

Beyond that though, even in Europe, diversions happen all the time. When fog appears the airports have dramatic reductions in the number of aircraft they can handle per hour. Aircraft movements around the airport have to be very strictly controlled to ensure the ILS is not affected by anything. If 27L/09R is being used in London, only one A380 can be moving on the entire southern half of the airport.

I may have to divert, even though the airport I'm going to has a CAT III ILS and my aircraft and crew can use it. That's because you will always be required to have alternate fuel. That means that you'll need to have enough fuel to go to somewhere with good weather (i.e. it can't require a CAT anything itself) right down to touchdown. Many long haul operations don't allow you to fit in much holding fuel, and a full diversion is often way beyond reach. It's even possible that the airport has no fog whatsoever...but I still have to divert because the TTF contains mention of it. In many parts of the world diversion fields are reasonably close, and the fuel needed isn't a huge amount, but in Oz the diversions are all a long way off....

 

[TheRealTMA]

Thanks for the details JB.

 

[geordieladinoz]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Foggy around Wolli Creek this morning but all looks happier at SYD airport with arrivals and no diversions. Just saw UA863 ex SFO come in over the CBD.

Huge sighs of relief all round this morning I am sure!!

 

[DeKa]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

It was foggy this morning so there were a few diversions to Melbourne.

Looking outside now, lots of fog has rolled it and it's only 9pm. Does that mean delays may be worse tomorrow?

 

[kpc]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

It was foggy this morning so there were a few diversions to Melbourne.

Looking outside now, lots of fog has rolled it and it's only 9pm. Does that mean delays may be worse tomorrow?

Our flight from Bne this evening just beat the Sydney fog

 

[DeKa]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Aircraft are still landing ... QF774 just landed.

 

[jb747]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

It was foggy this morning so there were a few diversions to Melbourne.

Looking outside now, lots of fog has rolled it and it's only 9pm. Does that mean delays may be worse tomorrow?

This was from the Bureau web site, just a couple of minutes after your post.

*SYDNEY YSSY
	09:21 UTC, 10/06/2013 TAF AMD YSSY 100921Z 1009/1112 29008KT CAVOK FM110000 36010KT 9999 FEW045 PROB30 1012/1016 4000 BR PROB30 1016/1023 0500 FG RMK T 16 14 12 11 Q 1019 1019 1018 1017
	11:03 UTC, 10/06/2013 TTF METAR YSSY 101100Z 34006KT CAVOK 14/13 Q1019 RMK RF00.0/000.6 FM1200 29008KT 4000 BR

So, they're forecasting a chance of mist between 2200 and 0200 local (what you're seeing now I guess), and then fog from 0200 to 1100 local.

If there's some there now, I'd reckon the chance for the early morning will be almost a sure thing. With all of the attendant delays, and diversions.....

 

[DeKa]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Thanks jb747.

What do you think about first departures? I assume they'd be ok if the aircraft make it to SYD tonight.

 

[jb747]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Aircraft are still landing ... QF774 just landed.

The ATIS is giving 4000 meters BR (mist). That's no issue.

 

[defurax]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

The ATIS is giving 4000 meters BR (mist). That's no issue.

Good to know, I'm waiting for the 22:05 SYD-MEL.

 

[jb747]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

What do you think about first departures? I assume they'd be ok if the aircraft make it to SYD tonight.

Markis will be best able to advise upon the procedural effects upon Sydney.

Takeoff minimum vis for Sydney is 350 metres. But, the overall effect on the airport is for everything to be dramatically slowed. Arrivals have priority over departures (for obvious reasons).

So, everything slows to a crawl, and the aircraft will be late, all around the network, for most of the day. Long haul flights that may have departed before fog was added to the forecast, or that simply cannot carry the fuel necessary for an alternate, will be the ones most likely to be forced to divert.

The ATIS has just been updated. There's mist around, but the airport is operating normally, with aircraft making visual approaches.

 

[DeKa]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

All of a sudden there's a whole lot less fog outside here too.

 

[Awesom Andy]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Is SYD now a cat II airport? At 500m vis, if I remember correctly, it's just beyond the limits of cat I.

 

[RickyT84]

Was coming back on QF 462 from MEL earlier this evening and from the air, its clear that a vast area of south-western Sydney were covered in fog already at around 8:15pm.[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]It is also evident that some fog/mist is forming already at the airport when we landed.

Interestingly we were carrying some extra fuel for BNE (as an alternative) due to the chance of fog.

 

[jb747]

Re: BNE popular for diversions this morning.

Is SYD now a cat II airport? At 500m vis, if I remember correctly, it's just beyond the limits of cat I.

Take off and landing have different vis and lighting requirements.

Right now, the best Sydney can do for landing is 220 feet, RVR 550m, or vis .8km (runway 16R). On 34 left, the vis goes up to 1.5 km. I think the issue there is lighting, or rather lack of it, on 34L.

For take off, 550 metres is the standard minimum vis, but CASA approved operators (I don't know who that includes) can go to 350 metres RVR. Note that one is RVR whilst the other is vis. RVR is accurately measured.

CAT II refers to a whole package of lighting, aids, backup power, and procedures, all of which come together to offer landing minima down to about 100 feet (radar altitude) and RVRs of 300m. Take off minima could be shorter or longer....

CAT III has a couple of stages, but steps down to offer 0 altitude and 75m RVR.

Part and parcel with this though is the 'alternate criteria'. Basically, that's a weather set which if infringed at all means that I need to carry fuel for an alternate. So, even though the runway may offer 0 feet/75 m RVR, and the actual weather is 200 feet/ 1000 m RVR, if the alternate criteria is 400'/1600 m, then I need to have fuel for an alternate right down to touchdown. That's the issue that forces most diversions. You can get in all right....but you aren't legal.

Sydney is supposed to be getting a CAT II approach to 16R in the next couple of months. That will help, but probably to a lessor degree than we'd all like.