Flight changes; unsure how to proceed

[RooFlyer]

What is frustrating, from my view anyway, is we have yet another example of foul behavior from Qantas' USA based staff.

During the last downgrade debacle, Qantas/Redroo seemed to shy away from every issue except that "the service received was not what is expected of a premium airline" or whatever the usual line is. We now have an identical situation handled just as poorly by the Qantas USA contract staff. This adds to my experiences with QF contractors across the U.S., who seem to be generally poor. Why has this not been addressed?

Not sure, but keen to hear Red Roo's response to this.

Red Roo did promptly respond to, and I believe took on board criticisms and negative comments about behaviour by, and service from the staff in the QF F lounge at LAX. RR also solicited details of this incident up-thread. I don't think its fair to pin a general 'lack of addressing' of issues with USA contractors at RR's door or any door near it. I also don't think we can expect RR to comment on specific outcomes unless they specifically seek a response from up the chain that they can pass on (unlikely to be successful IMHO)!

When in doubt, do what I do and get stuck into Qantas' management!

Edit: I don't think I would be satisfied with the outcome as posted. Kick it up the chain if you are still able, Zephyrana.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Is $3K the difference in return fares SYD/JFK/SYD or one way?

Dunno! I went by eastwest's figures.

Doing my own research now, based on return fares in August, for departures ex JFK, First saver is USD8446 each way (based on round trip) compared to business saver of $5897 each way (based on round trip). However - the first fares don't give travel in business class QF transcon, they route F/cl on AA.

So the difference looks bigger if based on return tickets... refund (if within airline's control) should be USD2600 one way.

 

[Nizar]

Red Roo did promptly respond to, and I believe took on board criticisms and negative comments about behaviour by, and service from the staff in the QF F lounge at LAX. RR also solicited details of this incident up-thread. I don't think its fair to pin a general 'lack of addressing' of issues with USA contractors at RR's door or any door near it. I also don't think we can expect RR to comment on specific outcomes unless they specifically seek a response from up the chain that they can pass on (unlikely to be successful IMHO)!

When in doubt, do what I do and get stuck into Qantas' management!

Edit: I don't think I would be satisfied with the outcome as posted. Kick it up the chain if you are still able, Zephyrana.

Lol I thought it was only Joe Hockey you defended with such vigour !

 

[RooFlyer]

Lol I thought it was only Joe Hockey you defended with such vigour !

Edit: not so much defending Hockey as pulling up those who invent stuff.

I've given Red Roo a bit of stick over the time I've been here; although hoping always to direct the comment to management via RR. Now tTrying to earn some brownie points - you never know when I might need a J seat released to go to YVR :mrgreen: (or simply an op-up on domestic).

 

[RichardMEL]

Zephyrana

You seem like a very reasonable and understanding chap(ette) and have put up with a lot.

Here's some thoughts I have on this issue, as posted:

1. Isn't there supposed to be a oneworld team at LAX dedicated to monitoring and protecting such connections? Perhaps they think QF18 to SYD and then onto MEL equates to getting you there as quick as possible (ignoring the F part, which is not right for a paid pax). i also suspect their own mandate (if it's a oneworld team, or QF ops) is to keep "their" pax on their metal to cut costs. If they handed you over to AA to LAX, that would incur a fair cost to them (not the pax's problem of course!!!) and of course there may have been no availability by the time this was considered (though given the flight time LAX-JFK, they'd have known probably 4-5 hours prior to check in this would be an issue).

2. Astounding the attitude of the BA staff at JFK. Yes, they "handle" QF at JFK, but they clearly have little to do with QF. I wonder if QF even have a real QF rep on site. Judging from the attitude you received, it seems either they do not, or the staff were not willing to entertain to get hold of the station manager (or whoever).

3. You darn well SHOULD be important to QF!! Forget if you're Gold or Plat but paying a F fare (evem if it's Saver, or A class) is still a massive premium and yield to QF. on that day you would have been one of their best customers revenue wise. That deserves better treatment in my book.

4. Did you try to contact QF USA res when you were at check-in? I know they have a poor rep, but perhaps more proactive/useful thank the BA people weren't. (I admit, time may have been an issue at this point)

5. Simply saying "come back tomorrow and try again" as one's only option is poor.

6. Re the refund, you did not say (or I may have missed it!) if this was just a oneway fare JFK-MEL, or part of a roundtrip that could have an impact.

7. I'm glad you had little trouble with the ORC and it seems like QF's follow-up has been better at least.

Given you say you were Gold then hopped over to Plat during this latest "adventure" you've clearly already flown QF at least a bit in the last year - I hope your other experiences have not been so poor.

my 2 or 3 cents

best wishes,
richard

 

[TomVexille]

Is $3K the difference in return fares SYD/JFK/SYD or one way?

Based on my research, one-way

 

[Zephyrana]

Today I received an email from Customer Care confirming the refund of the fare difference, and also saying I'm entitled to "downgrade compensation" of US$1100. Very unexpected! I rang to give credit card details, and the Qantas representative said something about it being a "denied boarding" payment, which I don't understand but I guess is a way to give me something extra and line it up with their accounting/record-keeping practices.

By the way, the fare was booked Adelaide -> Melbourne -> Los Angeles -> New York (JFK) return; booked online in March for travel in May/June; paid in full by credit card.

Thank you all very much for your assistance here. The more experienced AFF members might not remember their own learning journey about these matters; airline operations are quite opaque to the regular user and it is difficult to manoeuvre through their processes. For example, in this matter I didn't know what my options might have been, when standing at the JFK check-in desk, and when I got home I didn't know whether to contact the frequent flyer people or someone else, or even the difference between them.

For another example, when Red Roo asked for my FF number, that's all I sent, but it seems from other comments here that I should have given more of the "story"? I don't know!

 

[Nizar]

Today I received an email from Customer Care confirming the refund of the fare difference, and also saying I'm entitled to "downgrade compensation" of US$1100. Very unexpected! I rang to give credit card details, and the Qantas representative said something about it being a "denied boarding" payment, which I don't understand but I guess is a way to give me something extra and line it up with their accounting/record-keeping practices.

By the way, the fare was booked Adelaide -> Melbourne -> Los Angeles -> New York (JFK) return; booked online in March for travel in May/June; paid in full by credit card.

Thank you all very much for your assistance here. The more experienced AFF members might not remember their own learning journey about these matters; airline operations are quite opaque to the regular user and it is difficult to manoeuvre through their processes. For example, in this matter I didn't know what my options might have been, when standing at the JFK check-in desk, and when I got home I didn't know whether to contact the frequent flyer people or someone else, or even the difference between them.

For another example, when Red Roo asked for my FF number, that's all I sent, but it seems from other comments here that I should have given more of the "story"? I don't know!

Seems like you got almost A$2900 back all up ? (A$1473 plus US$1100)
Pretty solid. I would be happy with that.

 

[Zephyrana]

Zephyrana

You seem like a very reasonable and understanding chap(ette) and have put up with a lot.

Here's some thoughts I have on this issue, as posted:

1. Isn't there supposed to be a oneworld team at LAX dedicated to monitoring and protecting such connections? Perhaps they think QF18 to SYD and then onto MEL equates to getting you there as quick as possible (ignoring the F part, which is not right for a paid pax). i also suspect their own mandate (if it's a oneworld team, or QF ops) is to keep "their" pax on their metal to cut costs. If they handed you over to AA to LAX, that would incur a fair cost to them (not the pax's problem of course!!!) and of course there may have been no availability by the time this was considered (though given the flight time LAX-JFK, they'd have known probably 4-5 hours prior to check in this would be an issue).

2. Astounding the attitude of the BA staff at JFK. Yes, they "handle" QF at JFK, but they clearly have little to do with QF. I wonder if QF even have a real QF rep on site. Judging from the attitude you received, it seems either they do not, or the staff were not willing to entertain to get hold of the station manager (or whoever).

3. You darn well SHOULD be important to QF!! Forget if you're Gold or Plat but paying a F fare (evem if it's Saver, or A class) is still a massive premium and yield to QF. on that day you would have been one of their best customers revenue wise. That deserves better treatment in my book.

4. Did you try to contact QF USA res when you were at check-in? I know they have a poor rep, but perhaps more proactive/useful thank the BA people weren't. (I admit, time may have been an issue at this point)

5. Simply saying "come back tomorrow and try again" as one's only option is poor.

6. Re the refund, you did not say (or I may have missed it!) if this was just a oneway fare JFK-MEL, or part of a roundtrip that could have an impact.

7. I'm glad you had little trouble with the ORC and it seems like QF's follow-up has been better at least.

Given you say you were Gold then hopped over to Plat during this latest "adventure" you've clearly already flown QF at least a bit in the last year - I hope your other experiences have not been so poor.

my 2 or 3 cents

best wishes,
richard

1. I can't answer any of this. I am grateful that Qantas got me home, and that I didn't have to rebook things myself but had it all sorted out for me. I believe it could have been handled better by the check-in people. It took me several hours to stop sulking about it, but I did get home!

2. The BA check-in people were not pleasant. The initial person was very casual - shrugging off my questions and concerns - and his supervisor/senior was cold, sneering and entirely disengaged from me as a customer. He didn't even look at me. While it has been pointed out in this thread that the BA uniform is irrevelant and as an agent for Qantas he had all the responsibilities for customer service as someone in a Qantas uniform, how was I to know that at the time? I can only imagine that he'd had a horrible day and was at the end of his coping powers. Or maybe he's the sort of person who sees a middle-aged frumpy woman and dismisses her as a valuable customer?

3. I can't answer this. Maybe they had given all their first class alternatives to those who were more important or had already contacted them and fought for them, or maybe there weren't any alternatives.

4. I didn't know there is a "QF USA res". There was plenty of time - I arrived early for my original check-in time and the flight was delayed 3 hours.

5. I agree.

6. The fare was an Adelaide-New York return trip.

7. Is ORC the customer care people? They have been lovely.

I've been experimenting with Qantas this year, with mixed results. For domestic travel I will go back to Virgin. For international travel, I'm not sure. But the first change I will make is finding a good travel agent and not trying to book it all myself!

 

[Zephyrana]

I'm very happy with it!

What I'm considering for the future is the quality and consistency of the Qantas first class product.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I'm very happy with it!

What I'm considering for the future is the quality and consistency of the Qantas first class product.

I think it was a good outcome for you - given what happened, I think Qantas have done everything they can to make it up to you.

I suppose what we all hated the most was the way you were treated at New York and hope that sharing your story might mean a different outcome for someone else in the future.

I think once Red Roo was involved all the details from here would have been passed onto Customer care. I agree with you I have found the people from there and from loyalty so nice to deal with. They changed me from "Hell will freeze over before I set foot on another Qantas international flight" to " well I will fly Qantas internationally when it makes sense". Given our debacle a few months ago, we are now going to try Singapore and Etihad (although from what I read about Etihad service they don't seem at all good except actually in the air).

If I had another experience where I had trouble with my booking while overseas, I wouldn't even try and sort it out with overseas people, I would phone Qantas in Sydney immediately, but that is based on one experience so may not be valid.

From my point of view no amount of compensation or refunds would make up for being downgraded - of course there will be times when something happens at the last minute which means there is no other choice, but I would want to feel confident that all options had been explored not just a suck it up attitude that you experienced. (And me initially).

 

[BD1959]

Hi Zephyrana,

Pleased to hear you've had this issue resolved to your satisfaction.

airline operations are quite opaque to the regular user and it is difficult to manoeuvre through their processes. For example, in this matter I didn't know what my options might have been, when standing at the JFK check-in desk, and when I got home I didn't know whether to contact the frequent flyer people or someone else, or even the difference between them.

Alirline operations should be opaque to ALL users - especially with respect to irregular operations. That they aren't, I suppose, is why airline service delivery is regulated in markets such as the EU.

Airlines are a business: of course they are always going to take the least expensive option. They are serviced by people who may - or may not - decide to take the easiest way of moving you on.

In the EU situation, you *should* be availed of your rights at check-in.

With QF at NYC (or most other locations) you need to be across your options because QF are under no obligation to inform you. It's at times like this - or in quiet hindsight - that the premium that has been paid simply to fly QF (due to the implicit higher service standard) or the premium that has been paid for cabin-type and assess whether that premium was worth the support provided.

Simply: while it's good that you're now "better educated", you should not have to resort to a resource like this in order to have your grievance rectified.

A question that QF should be pondering but would be worth hearing the answer from yourself: (if AFF was not available and therefore you only received what QF initially offered), given the "service" you received, would you have chosen QF over another airline the next time you book?

Obvious statement #56: A business usually lives - or dies - as a result of repeat custom; something ALL business should keep in mind.

Regards,

BD

 

[timster]

2. The BA check-in people were not pleasant. The initial person was very casual - shrugging off my questions and concerns - and his supervisor/senior was cold, sneering and entirely disengaged from me as a customer. He didn't even look at me. While it has been pointed out in this thread that the BA uniform is irrevelant and as an agent for Qantas he had all the responsibilities for customer service as someone in a Qantas uniform, how was I to know that at the time?

I guess that's what you get after a messy divorce between former partners. One World ? What world is that ?

 

[Zephyrana]

Hi Zephyrana,
A question that QF should be pondering but would be worth hearing the answer from yourself: (if AFF was not available and therefore you only received what QF initially offered), given the "service" you received, would you have chosen QF over another airline the next time you book?
BD

Ahahahahahahhahahahahahah
*deep breath*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa

No.

 

[BD1959]

Ahahahahahahhahahahahahah
*deep breath*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa

No.

Which should be a *massive* wake-up call for QF.

Although your circumstances were - hopefully - rare, QF's *decision* to run it's International Fleet harder will result in more and more likelihood of there being repercussions on passengers.

It is how QF handle those disruptions at the time which will influence the likelihood of repeat business from those affected.

Regards,

BD

 

[BD1959]

I guess that's what you get after a messy divorce between former partners. One World ? What world is that ?

Obvious statement #57: My thought is that QF engage BA at NYC on a totally different contract to the previous JSA.

If BA are not executing that contract to the required service levels, then QF should be considering looking elsewhere.

Regards,

BD

 

[Zephyrana]

I don't know if there's any validity to this, but ...

I got the strong impression that Qantas's first class service is a token thing, a nod to the Platinum One people or so there is something beyond Business to upgrade to on occasion. Overall, the quality of the product is not what I expected for the price and I will be trying some other airlines to find a more appealing service.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I don't know if there's any validity to this, but ...

I got the strong impression that Qantas's first class service is a token thing.

I believe the same and said so in my last communications with Qantas. Not so much that is there for Status passengers or as an upgrade, but I think Qantas is keeping First on a few routes where there is a small demand, but it is not their focus. Qantas (the company not the brand) is focused on its LCC and on business class. It would not surprise me in the long run to see First disappear totally, which is why we are starting to try out other carriers. I really like Qantas staff both on the ground and in the air and really like the bed in F.

However we feel we need to broaden our horizons and see what's really out there. Status has minimal benefits to us and we probably won't bother with any other program, but I want to make sure I am making future decisions based on actual experience, rather than a misplaced loyalty to "Australia's" airline which is now actually just a listed company whose loyalty is to its shareholders.

 

[JohnK]

Not another Qantas involuntary downgrade thread.

Qantas should initially be handling these situations better. The current handling is poor at best.

Good to see there has been appropriate compensation this time thanks to Red Roo but what about those that do not access AFF or other online forums. Why are they made to suffer when it's not their fault?

And I have to agree with the comments about ground handling on other airlines. It is not much better than Qantas if at all and more likely worse. Is that why Qantas is able to get away with that type of treatment?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Good to see there has been appropriate compensation this time...

I would say that is far from certain... but then we don't know the facts around the cause of the delay.