First Cabin design workshop

[RichardMEL]

Chances of a 747 refurb I think are close to nil.

If, as suggested today, QF is ordering the 777X I think that will be the 744 replacement.

I also doubt QF would put in an EK/VA style bar on the 380 as I think staffing may well be an issue. I just can't see it.

I could see a smaller F cabin (density wise) show up with some more space and a redesign. It may well depend on the longer term plans for the 380 at QF - now that they are nearly 10 years old they're headed into middle age.... definitely need J redone, but the hit on seating capacity may be the issue for QF.

just my 2 cents.

 

[mviy]

QANTAS could order more A380s and get new seats in those and start refurbing the existing planes after that, but they've already said that they don't want any more A380s. So the issue becomes how do they best cover for A380s being refurbed. That would seem to suggest that the 787 would cover for their absence either directly or freeing up the 747 from other routes and maybe once the A380 is refurbished (whether that involves new F seating or not) QANTAS could then retire some of the 747 aircraft. At least that's what I think will happen.

 

[docjames]

I wasn't invited to the day, so i can express my opinion! :shock:

With a recent outbound from Aus in EK F (a first for me) and returning back 10 days later in QF F, I can see where the QF product has been left behind compared to EK (amongst others).

An upgrade is clearly needed. The EK seats (with door etc) and the whole F experience (dine when you want etc) felt much more exclusive and private than QF F when back-to-back. I accept there can be pros and cons which very in importance to each individual, but both these flights were "routine". The caveat to that was that I ended up on EK due to a seat failure on QF and was transferred (leaving me barely enough time to get to the airport to make the EK checkin cutoff!), and then on the way home, for some inexplicable reason, the IFE failed suddenly and needed to be reset.

Personally, i'd like to see F move into "Emerald City" and J then remaining length of upper deck, leaving the whole bottom level as Y+ and Y. J on the 380 clearly needs to be upgraded to individual aisle access, so the 787/330 seat will need to be incorporated, which probably means 1-2-1 on the upper deck. The one issue with this approach (apart from cost / major config change) would be the last J pax will be WAAAAY behind a stack of Y pax into immigration hall etc.

 

[RichardMEL]

Also note EK's current F hard product is quite old and outdated itself and they are slated to announce a refresh/new concept this year.
In fact just about all of the 380 operators have relatively older F cabins (exceptions being of course EY and QR). IIRC there's nothing earth shattering about BA's F, LH's F has the urinal in the lav but what else major? TG's F is decent, but it's not groundbreaking that I can see, KE and OZ have had their products in the sky for quite awhile and so on.

As for QF ordering more 380's? I rate the chance as being very low. Clearly they feel burnt by the 380 vs777 decision where they missed the original boat on the 777 over 10 years ago when they made the wrong call on capacity. I can't see more 380's in the short term, even with 744 retirements moving forward that will become the niche of the 787 and probably 777X going forward. It would allow QF to become more agile.

 

[moa999]

So the issue becomes how do they best cover for A380s being refurbed. .

Apart from Xmas period, generally only 11 A380s scheduled to operate as the others are rotated through maintenance, so no issues doing the refurb.

Personally don't think that QF missed the boat on the 777s. They had youngish 747s which didn't need replacing, and the A380s are a perfect aircraft for the LHR and LAX routes where they can get the passenger numbers and slots are at a premium.

QFs only real uses for the 772 773s would have been the Asian routes where the 330s do a great job.

Chances of a 747 refurb I think are close to nil.

First 777-8/9X deliveries not till 2021 and with 200+ orders already, probably much later for QF if they do make an order. The ERs need a refurb to get through to 2022-24

 

[RichardMEL]

Personally don't think that QF missed the boat on the 777s. They had youngish 747s which didn't need replacing, and the A380s are a perfect aircraft for the LHR and LAX routes where they can get the passenger numbers and slots are at a premium.

QFs only real uses for the 772 773s would have been the Asian routes where the 330s do a great job.

Agree on the early model 777's which lacked range but I feel the 777-300ER (77W) and forthcoming 777-X family, along with the observed success of the A350 in longer markets is a factor. Yes, your point about LHR and LAX slots are valid (though I don't know that LAX has slots per se, but that's a different issue) - the capacity is good for those key routes, but what about QF wanting to serve other routes - MEL-SFO or SYD-ORD or so on? Also the 777/787 can provide for frequency growth on some routes. Even note QF putting the first 787 on to the QF95/96 afternoon MEL-LAX route - replacing a 747 that was pulled off it and redeployed to HKG service. Sure, that 787 may not stay there as PER-LHR is introduced, but I think it's a great fit to allow QF to operate a double-daily service again with the appeal of the afternoon flight slot as an alternative to the usual morning ones.

I do feel only a very few places require the capacity of the 380 for profitable operations while many airlines have shown smaller a/c like the 787/777/330/350 can work well no non hub-hub or focus city routes. Foe example I feel the availability of the 787 size a/c with range has allowed a carrier like UA to stay in MEL, and re-open a route to AKL where prior the 747 was just too big with too high costs.

Still, it's an interesting time whichever way they go

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Agree with some of the previous comments regarding the need for a refresh... I don't think QF actually offers F these days, it is essentially business class with a wider and longer seat (a luxury business class if you wish, similar to BA).

Food is now the same in both cabins, the F amenity kit has been downgraded. Only a handful of business class pax these days don't have access to F lounges (given all the double status credit promotions).

First hosts? A rare species indeed.

 

[Pleb Status]

First hosts? A rare species indeed.

If I did not have to chase one down once when QF lost my bag somewhere between PER and LAX, I would put QF F hosts in the same category as the Yeti and Loch Ness monster.

I may have a 'grainy' photo of one somewhere and I have never encountered one again.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re F hosts

There are some pax who demand a host escort to the lounge and then to the aircraft to introduce them to the crew and so on...


as for my only real encounter with a F host it was at MEL after arriving from LAX.. they caught me deplaning and let me know my bag didn't make it and they had everything prepared to sort it out, esorted me to bag services to confirm a few details then to the head of the customs priority line to leave. I was out of the terminal in around 10 minutes. I was very very impressed (and QF had my bag to me later that day; it had gone via BNE). Same host then recognised me and said hello a few months later at F check in - but I was headed to AKL. Nice touch, and she supports the same footy team as me. LOL

other than that, not really seen but also by me not really needed. They were there when I needed them so for me, it's been a 100% hit rate

 

[kermatu]

Agree with some of the previous comments regarding the need for a refresh... I don't think QF actually offers F these days, it is essentially business class with a wider and longer seat (a luxury business class if you wish, similar to BA).

Food is now the same in both cabins, the F amenity kit has been downgraded. Only a handful of business class pax these days don't have access to F lounges (given all the double status credit promotions).

First hosts? A rare species indeed.

Completely agree with all of this. I am now avoiding QF A380s as the J hard product is inferior (when travelling solo) and F offers practically nothing more than the J soft product (food, chauffeur etc). Have become a fan of the refurbed A330s though as a respectable J offering.

I would like to see QF retain F and offer it on more routes. But before refurbing the A380s I'd prefer it focus on improving the soft product. That would be enough to entice me back.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Completely agree with all of this. I am now avoiding QF A380s as the J hard product is inferior (when travelling solo) and F offers practically nothing more than the J soft product (food, chauffeur etc). Have become a fan of the refurbed A330s though as a respectable J offering.

I would like to see QF retain F and offer it on more routes. But before refurbing the A380s I'd prefer it focus on improving the soft product. That would be enough to entice me back.

And such an easy solution for ideas... just take a trip on SQ, LH, AF, JL, NH, CX... pick from one of a dozen soft product features that make those F services stand out.

But if QF chooses to continue to rely on their 'panel of experts' - the same ones that voted for cafe breakfasts, a second meal served in a cardboard box, charging for exit rows, removal of anytime access - QF will probably think nothing is wrong. And to an extent maybe their clients don't really care? If a platinum of P1 can ring up and have an award released at anytime maybe they don't value the product so much.

 

[serfty]

... dine when you want etc ...

Ha!

Qantas had that on both their First and Business class menus for some time.

However, I suspect severe pushback from FA's, in-flight and otherwise led to its demise ...

 

[docjames]

Ha!

Qantas had that on both their First and Business class menus for some time.

However, I suspect severe pushback from FA's, in-flight and otherwise led to its demise ...

And the product offering is worse for it.

 

[Pleb Status]

On the topic of dine at any time, does QF still start serving breakfast in J/F a ludicrous four hours prior to arrival into Australia when travelling overnight from the USA?

Also, dine at any time was certainly not an option in J on QF9 in December.

 

[serfty]

...
Also, dine at any time was certainly not an option in J on QF9 in December.

ISTR it being 2 or three years since it was last noted on the menus.

 

[Happy Trails]

ISTR it being 2 or three years since it was last noted on the menus.

It's still up on the website FWIW.

International Inflight Dining | Qantas

Business
Dine when it suits you
We have redesigned our international Business menus to offer a contemporary selection of Rockpool inspired small and main plates on all international flights (excluding Noumea flights).
Our International Business menus are all about choice. The enhanced menus give you the option to eat something light or a three course meal. You can also choose when you eat, so you can maximise your sleep on board.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You can also choose when you eat, so you can maximise your sleep on board.

lemme translate that: you can choose to eat either in the lounge or when you get home, so you can maximise your sleep on board

 

[kermatu]

And the menus say "we offer you a completely personalised dining experience". I'd say most people would regard this as giving you some choice of timing, but of course it's not - with a few rare exceptions but totally dependent on crew on any given flight.

 

[Happy Trails]

lemme translate that: you can choose to eat either in the lounge or when you get home, so you can maximise your sleep on board

Yeah, that occurred to me too, hence the qualifying FWIW.

 

[Kangol]

On the topic of dine at any time, does QF still start serving breakfast in J/F a ludicrous four hours prior to arrival into Australia when travelling overnight from the USA?

No, I've had breakfast on the LAX-Oz flights at ~90mins, sometimes even closer to 60mins, from landing many times. J and F. More times in F, thankfully
Cannot comment on QF8 but I would imagine it's the same.
It doesn't hurt to put your order at the desired schedule in ahead of time.
Actually, there is no advantage to keeping your intentions quiet.