Does Qantas domestic scheduling have issues?

[straitman]

Re: I was on QF665 that turned back yesterday

I'll report on this thread about what happens with the points. It is too soon for them to end up on the statement.

I'll start a separate report about the turn-back and debacle.

Cheers,
Andrew.

Hi Actualise,

Welcome to AFF.

You sound like you may have some ideas here that could be useful to people. Would you care to elaborate your background and perspective a little :?:

 

[Actualise]

I fly for business almost daily living in ADL with my clients in MEL and prospects in every other state. Mostly use QF these days - too lazy to check V prices.

I've not flown so much in the last 3 years but prior to that commuted to Sydney from Adelaide (Mon-Fri) with a lot of domestic and international travel.

Prior to that again travelled internationally (US, India, Asia, Europe) extensively.

I also have a fair bit of insight into how they work from years of watching, and working in related IT fields.

To me this domestic scheduling issue is due to the aging fleet (brings back memories) with more failures/maintenance issues, perhaps including the offshore maintenance models. Ever looked at how much oil there is on the wings of 737-400s, for instance in the QF fleet. Worse than the old Continental in the US!

You hear it a lot more recently: "Due to the late arrival of your operating aircraft your boarding time will be delayed until..." I had a joke with a flight crew the other day, saying, "Of course Qantas isn't at all responsible for that late arrival. It is the bloody aircraft". I didn't think it was that funny - if it wasn't serious it would have been, but they had a good old chuckle about it.

 

[NM]

To me this domestic scheduling issue is due to the aging fleet (brings back memories) with more failures/maintenance issues, perhaps including the offshore maintenance models. Ever looked at how much oil there is on the wings of 737-400s, for instance in the QF fleet. Worse than the old Continental in the US!

Which overseas maintenance provider is working on the 737-400s? And which of the QF domestic fleet aircraft are maintained overseas? I assume the new QF domestic A330-200s are going to be maintained overseas. But as far as I know, the 767s and 737s (and 743s) are maintained in Australia. I don't see the correlation between offshore maintenance model and domestic flight cancellations.

 

[Actualise]

Sorry. I can't paste a link. Google "Qantas rebuked over maintenance problems"

It is implied in this article in Sep that the 737-400s are being worked on overseas as well.

My evidence is only anecdotal and connecting dots.

Fundamentally I don't see any evidence of crew management or fog or the like causing delays - to me it is just the aging fleet that I see... but I have only my own experience to go on.

 

[Evan]

Which overseas maintenance provider is working on the 737-400s? And which of the QF domestic fleet aircraft are maintained overseas? I assume the new QF domestic A330-200s are going to be maintained overseas. But as far as I know, the 767s and 737s (and 743s) are maintained in Australia. I don't see the correlation between offshore maintenance model and domestic flight cancellations.

Ummm, for sure some 767 work is done in Singapore and other locations, Confirmed by our QF lurker here (and known to me since i meet a pilot friend in Singapore now and then when he does ferry flights)
Also i believe some C checks are for 737's are done in this region of the world.
The interior dreamtime -> millenium conversions are done in SIN it seems.

What i cant tell you is if this is just random work or regular work. In any case atlast a fair amount of work is done in Australia including heavy checks. 70%, 50%, 30% who knows but there must be a split.

If i understand the 744's flying to the USA get a lot of there work done there.

Some overseas work would be expected and normal, but i dont see what relevence it has to the current situations, living in Asia i can tell you there working style has faults and also advantages, the trick it to manage it so work is done where the process is best suited.
(Different countries for different tasks and production lines)

E

 

[serfty]

Sorry. I can't paste a link. Google "Qantas rebuked over maintenance problems"

It is implied in this article in Sep that the 737-400s are being worked on overseas as well.

My evidence is only anecdotal and connecting dots.
....

Is this the article?:

WA Today - Qantas rebuked over maintenance problems

Note the following except from said article:

... Mr Quinn said CASA would begin observing overseas maintenance work as it is carried out on Qantas aircraft but could not link offshore maintenance with the recent spate of incidents. ...

 

[Actualise]

Try also googling "AviationWeek" and "CASA Orders More Safety Audits Of Qantas"... the first article.

Clearly CASA believes there is a connection between maintenance and operational performance.

 

[oz_mark]

That would be this article
CASA Orders More Safety Audits Of Qantas | AVIATION WEEK

 

[NM]

Ummm, for sure some 767 work is done in Singapore and other locations, Confirmed by our QF lurker here (and known to me since i meet a pilot friend in Singapore now and then when he does ferry flights)
Also i believe some C checks are for 737's are done in this region of the world.

Qantas' primary facility for 767 maintenance is in Brisbane and has been for a few years now after they moved from Sydney. So I would expect any scheduled 767 maintenance work done outside BNE is overflow. Of course running repairs are done wherever needed.

Similarly MEL is the primary base for QF 737 maintenance. Again running repairs will be done wherever the aircraft needs them to be done. But the primary location for scheduled 737 maintenance is MEL. Any scheduled work outside MEL is overflow. Not sure if NZ-based Jet Connect aircraft are done in NZ at the very extensive NZ facilities.

There are no maintenance facilities in Australia with the experience and tooling to undertake heavy maintenance of the QF A330 or A380 fleets. That seems to be done in various locations by Lufthansa Technik.

AVV is the primary location for QF 747 heavy maintenance. During the move from SYD, several 744s were sent elsewhere for heavy maintenance, much to the annoyance of the union representing the engineers. Since then, most has been done at AVV, but some overflow work is still being done in other countries. There has been discussion of having some checks and done during the down-time at LAX. I am not sure if this is just A checks or if heavier maintenance is being done there as well. Seems to make sense to me to do it while the aircraft is idle for so many hours.

I expect that while VH-OJK and VH-OJM are receiving special attention at AVV over the coming weeks, there may be some other scheduled QF 747 work looking for available facilities around the world.

 

[docjames]

Well BNE was at it's usual chaos on Friday evening.

I was on QF637 @ 1855 but go put "forward" to the 1825 departure which was delayed to 1855 (!) (and which left @ 1925 eventually after one dimwit decided not to board and they pulled his/her bag off!)

JohnK - you sounded well stressed / over it when i spoke to you! Glad you got the SYD eventually. Cancelled train on way to a/p didnt help! Next time i guess we'll get to have that drink (hope you got a few finally in the J lounge!)

The pilot of our a/c said they'd come out of MEL on the way up and were 40 mins late because ATC in MEL had had people call in sick and thus were unstaffed for a period and lots of the "slots" got cancelled / delayed. Given they chaos, I was glad QF did the right thing by me (got the third last seat on the "1825") and i got to MEL basically on time. Lots of weather too - seatbelt sign on for about 2/3 of the flight!

BNE is ALWAYS chaos on a Friday night. If you dont have checked luggage, i go to the jetstar screening point - it's heaps quicker. it's a huge bonus not to have checkin on a friday night as it can give QF some flexibility (if i'd been 5 mins earlier arriving, i'd have got on the 1725 and got away by 1745! bummer.)

I think matters arent helped b/c aircraft now have absolute minimum turnaround times (to maximise usage / profit) so the slightest muckup anywhere and they're gone for the rest of the day. I'd also note QF were holding some of the Qantaslink flights to NthQld so pax could connect from the delayed flights for the southern states.

On good news, MEL was running like clockwork on Sunday night (for us on th 2005 - not for those on the 1905 which left at the same time as us!)

Oh, and for both flights I'd booked, i was pre-allocated 14D (exit row:mrgreen !!

 

[JohnK]

For a change security was good on Friday night. The main issues appeared to be check in queues and not enough staff especially not having someone in the business class check in counter for over 30 minutes.

I don't think there has been a single week where there has not been delays due to one reason or another. I have heard all the excuses in the book. I really could not care less what excuse the airlines use. Fix the issues and get me home on time. I must be asking for too much even when I get to the airport early and ask for a seat on an earlier flight only to be refused because of cheap ticket conditions but then my scheduled flight is delayed. The airlines want everything their way.

I am tired and my stress levels are constantly increasing to the point where I am having health issues again. I have just about had enough of commuting but see no alternative if I continue to work in BNE....

 

[Expon]

because ATC in MEL had had people call in sick and thus were unstaffed for a period

Because there is no way that Qantas could be to blame for any of the delay

 

[Dave Noble]

For a change security was good on Friday night. The main issues appeared to be check in queues and not enough staff especially not having someone in the business class check in counter for over 30 minutes.

I don't think there has been a single week where there has not been delays due to one reason or another. I have heard all the excuses in the book. I really could not care less what excuse the airlines use. Fix the issues and get me home on time. I must be asking for too much even when I get to the airport early and ask for a seat on an earlier flight only to be refused because of cheap ticket conditions but then my scheduled flight is delayed. The airlines want everything their way.

I am tired and my stress levels are constantly increasing to the point where I am having health issues again. I have just about had enough of commuting but see no alternative if I continue to work in BNE....

Well, if you want to hop on earlier flights, you could book flights which are eligable to do so such as flexi savers.

You don't have to commute each week; you could just stay in Brisbane some weekends and avoid the travel and reduce costs as I know others do; if accepting a job in a remote location, these are issues that occur.


Dave

 

[docjames]

Because there is no way that Qantas could be to blame for any of the delay

Well i'm inclined to believe them. They readily tell you if the aircraft goes u/s or delay due to late loading etc.

I guess the sceptics will feel they're covering up. Given VB were delayed too, maybe QF are responsible for that too!

 

[anat0l]

Not sure about scheduling issues, but I can say that on the same day that the OP was travelling, I had a flight to ADL in the morning. As usual, BNE D at the QF end was a zoo for bag drop. The QP/J/OWR+ line wasn't faring much better (it was really a case of waiting 20 minutes vs. 200 minutes - OK exaggeration but you know what I mean - the lesser of two evils thing). This highlights already one significant problem - there are not enough staff at check-in counters to handle the crowd.

Moreover, the whole system just seemed so uncoordinated. The long lines meant that people who had to drop bags for imminently boarding flights had to be called through to cut the queue. And they set up the "queue cutting pax" check-in counters to be in the middle! Idiots - they should have set up the counters near the end of the counter bank. Also, forcing a line where OLCI people with already printed BPs is a furphy, since any pax is going to line up there anyway, whether or not they have a BP (and whether this BP was obtained through OLCI at home or through the QuickCheck machine). I haven't seen the desk agent yet that has turned a passenger right around because they did not have a BP when the arrived at the counter. (Actually I would be in heaps of trouble because I rarely have a BP because I want the cardboard BPs they only stock behind the desk or at the QP... )

As for the schedule delays, we had a bit of turbulence on my BNE-ADL flight, although it was more when we were passing around the NSW/VIC border (viz. flight path close to MQL, a bit away from that). Our captain also mentioned some delay due to ADL ATC holding us up - net result = arrived late by 10 minutes. Perhaps that incident was a precursor for things to come....

If it was fair dinkum reason for the weather causing delays, then there is not a lot one can do; if it's also coupled with the wussy curfew in wussy SYD, then that doesn't help things. Having said that, even if it is a regular occurring thing, what could be done to get around it? Tighten the schedule but have the same number of planes (i.e. instead of one flight every 30 minutes, we go one every 15)?

Admittedly, in a perfect world QF would do better to have a fleet that can be readily relied upon at all times with enough back ups to roll right off the lines when required with minimal to no loss of time (because even the slightest delay in time has severe knock-on effects). But we don't live in a perfect world. It could be worse: ever get stuck in New Zealand domestic? Not pretty.

I can't imagine how DJ copes with similar issues. Admittedly, they have a newer fleet, so operational issues should be minimal. But when Acts of God start to play games with the schedules, how much has DJ built into its risk and contingency plans to deal with such a situation whilst still operating within the protocols of its prescribed business model?

Friday night fever doesn't help things. Flights are full, people are progressively getting frustrated about everything from where are the planes right down to why wasn't my upgrade granted . I assume weather can't be to blame every week so if there are still scheduling issues then I can't think of a plausible reason why that is so.

I think the shifting flights option is usually only possible if you arrive quite early at the airport and a seat with similar (if not the same) class code exists on the earlier flight. Given that many Friday night flights are full except for possibly in B, H and/or Y, the chances of that happening are pretty slim. Of course you could insist on changing to an earlier flight but then you run the risk of being charged through the teeth as per the standard book policies.

Whew! That was my 2c....

 

[docjames]

Well, I was on S class fare (super saver) and it was literally:

"Hi, I'm on the 1855 but no BP because exit row"

"Oh, hang on (lloks for flight number b/c i couldnt remeber) - that's leaving really late. Let's get you out of here tonight.........here's the third last seat on the 1825 - it's boarding at 1805 - how's that?"


"GREAT!!!! THANKS and goodluck for what's looking like a bad night"


Needless to say, i was happy (but missed the drink in the J lounge with JohnK - whom was probably still stuck @ checkin whilst i was boarding.


NO CHECKED LUGGAGE CERTAINLY HELPS!!

 

[crazydave98]

Admittedly, in a perfect world QF would do better to have a fleet that can be readily relied upon at all times with enough back ups to roll right off the lines when required with minimal to no loss of time (because even the slightest delay in time has severe knock-on effects).

I can't imagine how DJ copes with similar issues. Admittedly, they have a newer fleet, so operational issues should be minimal. But when Acts of God start to play games with the schedules, how much has DJ built into its risk and contingency plans to deal with such a situation whilst still operating within the protocols of its prescribed business model?

How do we cope with similar issues? Apparently a lot better than Qantas. Over the past 5 years Qantas has had a 25% higher cancellation rate than Virgin Blue - still higher even if you take out the few months of the engineeers (mechanics) industrial campaign. But I don't see why anyone should excuse Qantas for not being able to manage its staff relations any more than excusing them for not having newer aircraft.

Of flights that do depart, more Virgin Blue flights depart on time than Qantas or Jetstar ever since the latter's inception (although attached chart only shows DJ vs QF).

And for what it is worth Virgin Blue operates more sectors per month than Qantas mainline (11,000 DJ vs 10,500 QF vs 4,900 JQ) http://www.btre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/otphome.aspx

 

[Evan]

Crazydave, What interests me most about those graphs is the huge change from mid 2007 onwards for both airlines, was there a different reporting method use or some other reason ? or just chance ? or because QF gets away with it DJ follows (Not really follows but trying to say if the oposition is bad then i can afford to be type mentality)

I dont really see all that much difference between to the 2, neither seems too bad till you compare the international cancellations from the likes of Tiger from what i see (Every time i am at the airport in SIN i see there canceled flights of the board so i have no figures just a guess)

Do the airlines try to keep counts on there opposition to better them each month ? (I assume figures only published monthly after the fact)

E

 

[crazydave98]

Crazydave, What interests me most about those graphs is the huge change from mid 2007 onwards for both airlines, was there a different reporting method use or some other reason ? or just chance ? or because QF gets away with it DJ follows

I dont really see all that much difference between to the 2, neither seems too bad

Do the airlines try to keep counts on there opposition to better them each month ? (I assume figures only published monthly after the fact)

Good questions. The biggest drivers of OTP are weather, Sydney Airport and Air Traffic Control. I don't know that weather has gotten measurably worse as far as disruptions go despite global warming. However both the other two have gotten markedly worse. When ATC don't have enough staff to man the Approaches and Tower functions in particular it all goes pear shaped because they revert to different practices (I used to work for CAA and Airservices in the distant past by the way). Sydney has become a lot more congested with both landing slots and gates (although you would expect gates issue at T2 should affect us more than Qantas as we and Jetstar have been the ones increasing frequencies). Something like 50% of flights in our network are either coming from or going to SYD (and similar for QF) so when things get tight there it cascades through the entire network.

We don't get OTP stats until they are published.

As to not much difference between us and Qantas, well that depends on the perspective of the individual. As per the title of the cancellation slide Qantas (mainline) cancel 25% more flights than Virgin Blue - I think most travellers subject to that would find it significant and it's one of the reasons we are seeing more corporate bookings (that and the general belt-tightening going on in the corporate world). Will be interesting to see what the effect of an all-inclusive premium economy product has.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[JohnK]

The drop in on time performance over the last year or so is a concern. I would be interested to see the on time performance figures broken down to include the MEL-SYD-BNE triangle separately. I would be surprised if the on time performance for the triangle was above 50%. Can't blame the weather or air traffic control all the time. If the fleet is old and tired and not able to cope with the heavy schedule then it is time to update.

I have been commuting back from BNE on a Friday night for over 5 months now and I have lost count of the number of times I have arrived in SYD later than scheduled. In fact in this time there are not too many times I have actually arrived even close to the scheduled arrival time. Most times I am over an hour late.

It is disappointing that most people think this is acceptable.