Demand from AMEX

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Rick93

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Dear all,

Many of you will recall my woes with AMEX ( plus others ).

Today, my wife receive notification, that AMEX intend on persuing us
( actually her account ) for ' several thousand dollars '.

Story goes like this:

Balance transfer ( BT ) from my non AMEX credit card to her AMEX card. Her card paid out, I then wanted to BT her credit limit back to my non AMEX card ( for reasons of making monthly payment & min. interest for previous month ).
AMEX refused to do a BT ( discussed on other threads ). AMEX advise, get other bank to cancel BT, and do a reversal. Request placed with non AMEX card.

However, during this time, I declared Bankruptcy, and my non AMEX card account was frozen, later closed.

Now, apparently, the non AMEX card sent the funds back to AMEX, which gave my wife's card a positive balance of 'several thousand'. AMEX offered to provide a cheque to my wife. She asked for the account to be closed.

So, AMEX sent her a cheque, and closed the account. That was in February this year. They also sent a final statement, stating clearly:

" Your account is now cancelled and no payment is required ".

No further statements for next two months, then one turns up in June, stating an outstanding balance of ' several thousand'. Please pay $175. interest payment.....

The whole thing is ' clouded ' by my Bankruptcy - the non AMEX account being closed and cancelled, BEFORE the transaction of these funds was completed. It's taken a number of months for AMEX and the other bank to realise that it didn't add up.

However, I have ( we have it ) it in writing from AMEX, that my wife's account was formally closed and cancelled ( can't even log on anymore ), and no payment is required.

Aside from any perception of morality ( does anybody really feel that way for AMEX ??), do they have the right to demand payment for these funds??

Would we have a reasonable chance of success, in the Fair Trading Tribunal, stating our claim of ' their problem now '??

Would value comments,
thanks,

GORDO ( and Mrs. )
 

Dave Noble

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I can't see how she could not be liable

The AMEX payment to her was made due to an error given that the money had not been actually successfully transferred and that she would owe AMEX for the monies. The fact that at the time no payment was due does not exempt owing for transactions that still come through

You might want to take professional advice but would look like she would be liable to repay AMEX the payment that suffered a funds reversal

Dave
 

oz_mark

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Just a question. On a previous thread you mentioned your wife received a cheque for a 'small amount'. Is this the amount you are talking about? Did you follow up with Amex?

There we talked about rounding, possible pro rata fee refunds and the like. If the cheque was several thousand (amount not disclosed on other thread) then these things won't have explained them.
 

Rick93

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When the ' several thousand ' turned up in my wife's account again, it put it in positive balance of ' several thousand & a few hundred '. It was the few hundred that was mentioned earlier.

We didn't know that the account actually had this extra money in it. So, she asked for a refund cheque of the few hundred, and to close the account. AMEX sent out a cheque for the few hundred, but didn't close the account as requested, because there was still ' several thousand ' balance.

There's some additional fine detail, sure. But the main point is, we think the money had been sent by the non AMEX card account, THEN Bankruptcy was declared, and that account closed. It seems, that the other bank now realised the error, and wanted the money back from AMEX, and AMEX paid it..... now, they want it back from us ( my wife ).

Any thoughts on the wording on the statement..... Account cancelled etc.

regards,
GORDO
 
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medhead

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Interesting question. I gather what happened is about the following

amex --> NonAmex $X

$Y paid to AMEX

Amex demand reversal

Non-AMEX to AMEX $X

$Y + $X is greater then whatever debt was on the Amex hence it is now in credit.

Non-AMEX in debt but closed because of Bankruptcy.

I think you'd have a pretty good case for a couple of reasons:

First AMEX told you to reverse the BT - you did that in good faith and you should be able to rely on having satisfied their requirements by following their instructions.

You can also question why AMEX resent the BT to the other card provider after they had specifically told you to reverse the original BT. Your understanding was that the BT was not allowed by AMEX and you reverse the BT to satiisfy the instructions from AMEX. You can't be held responsible if AMEX then redo the BT despite the advice to you, without an instruction from you (or your wife as it is her card) and without asking your wife. You could also question why AMEX is paying money from your wife's account to an account of a known bankrupt.

Clearly you need to actually verify exactly what has happened with the money and the interaction between AMEX and the other card provider. However, there interaction is beyond you control and you acted in good faith and expected them to get everything correctly organised.

Finally point to question is the underlying reasoning behind this situation. At face value, without knowing all the facts, it could seem to be that the Non-amex card provider is trying to recover your debts from your wife. This could be occurring with the agreement of AMEX. This is not exactly legal as I understand. Your wife is supposed to be afforded some protection from your debts. This would be a serious accusation to make, but if you can get clear details of what has been going on between AMEX and the non-amex provider, you might be able to hold this against them as well.
 

Dave Noble

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You can also question why AMEX resent the BT to the other card provider after they had specifically told you to reverse the original BT. Your understanding was that the BT was not allowed by AMEX and you reverse the BT to satiisfy the instructions from AMEX. You can't be held responsible if AMEX then redo the BT despite the advice to you, without an instruction from you (or your wife as it is her card) and without asking your wife. You could also question why AMEX is paying money from your wife's account to an account of a known bankrupt.

Finally point to question is the underlying reasoning behind this situation. At face value, without knowing all the facts, it could seem to be that the Non-amex card provider is trying to recover your debts from your wife. This could be occurring with the agreement of AMEX. This is not exactly legal as I understand. Your wife is supposed to be afforded some protection from your debts. This would be a serious accusation to make, but if you can get clear details of what has been going on between AMEX and the non-amex provider, you might be able to hold this against them as well.

I disagree here

Before being made bankrupt, he requested a reversal to be applied to the AMEX account back to the non-AMEX account which was applied , but due to the account being closed the funds, rather than being applied to the closed account's debt, were incorrectly remitted back to AMEX

This was an error and then it was corrected. Receiving money in error does not entitle the recipient to keep it

I cannot see anything even vaguely good faith here; no attempt seems to have been made to ensure the correctness for money which the cardholder knew should not be in the account; no attempt mentioned of checking with AMEX regarding the error

Dave
 

munitalP

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Hello gordon

I have read your posts over the last 6 or so months with interest - from most of them, I perceive that you dont care that you are bankrupt - in fact, it even seems you are proud of the fact. let me tell you something - dont be proud, dont brag about it and dont keep trying to scam people from money owed - thats right mate, you owe people money and you didnt pay your bills - shame on you!

A few years back, I lost a business, cars, friendships and nearly a house from people who run up debt then didn't pay it - then opted out bankrupt. I got next to nothing in return except a kick in the clangers...

To make matters even worse, since your bankruptcy, you have even boasted about staying in 5 star hotels for your birthday etc on this site - mate, get with the game plan and realise that you should pay back what you owe, all I can say is you are lucky that you could even look at staying in a 5 star hotel for your birthday.

I hope AMEX gets back the money you owe them

Mr!

:evil:
 
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drron

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I really dont understand what is going on.Let us say non amex account is N,mrs gs Amex is A.
So A was in Negative balance of $xK,BT from N of $xk so that debt is cleared.Now if the Dave Noble scenario is right $yK is transferred from A to N.If it were now closed and funds sent back to A then a's balance = 0 not a positive several thousands.
So we have not got the whole story(or I am stupid which I wont necessarily disagree with).
Mate what you have to do is talk this through with the trustee in Bankruptcy.If indeed Bank N has got Amex to pay them monies my understanding is that would be illegal-any recoverable funds should be split amongst all creditors.The courts however do have the power to unravel any transaction it believes was to circumvent the bankruptcy in the months prior to the bankruptcy.So even if Bank N had to repay the money to Amex your Trustee may be able to claim it for all your creditors.
As we do not have all the facts anything said here is pure speculation.
So go to your trustee but you may very well need to come up with the readies even if the transaction you are complaining about is reversed.
I however do not judge you-been there,done that.
 

medhead

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I disagree here

Before being made bankrupt, he requested a reversal to be applied to the AMEX account back to the non-AMEX account which was applied , but due to the account being closed the funds, rather than being applied to the closed account's debt, were incorrectly remitted back to AMEX
Dave

That isn't what happen, refer to the OP

Balance transfer ( BT ) from my non AMEX credit card to her AMEX card. Her card paid out, I then wanted to BT her credit limit back to my non AMEX card

It is confusing, that is why I tried to map it out. The reversal was on a BT from AMEX to the Non-AMEX card. Therefore the money was sent back to AMEX as per AMEX's instructions to Gordon. The BT in question was reversed in good faith, and this is the end of Gordon's involvement (based on the info in this thread)

At some later time, for a not exactly clear reason, Amex has re sent the money to the Non-AMEX card and are now claiming back the money from Gordon's wife. In the worse case, the non-amex provider might have tried to use this as a way to recover the debt from his wife's AMEX. Such a situation might have required AMEX to be in on it. But more likely it is just an innocent mistake.

Either way, either AMEX or the non-amex provider have a problem of their own creation.
 

medhead

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If it were now closed and funds sent back to A then a's balance = 0 not a positive several thousands.
So we have not got the whole story(or I am stupid which I wont necessarily disagree with).
It could be up several thousand, if a payment had been made on the card. I.e. do the BT, expect it to work, make a payment to the card to start paying it off, then the BT comes back.

But your right it is very confusing and Gordon needs to clarify exactly what has happened with the payments going back and forward. That is to clarify for his dealings with various parties not to clarify for the benefit of this thread.
 

Rick93

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To those who have been affected by individuals or companies having declared Bankruptcy, I understand your dislike for people like me, who appear to have to have taken the 'easy way' out.

Just as a side issue, I didn't take such action to profit, or as a joke, or whatever. I used to work 60 hours a week.... every week. I ran three jobs, just to stay afloat. I kept up with my payments for years. However, late last year, my State Govt. employer got tough on 'secondary employment', and I was forced to resign. My other two jobs were casual, and sure enough, the hours started falling off. By the end of January this year, I knew I was in big trouble with my mortgage payments, not to mention the credit cards.

However, it is the system.... the current laws..... that allowed me to structure a declaration of Bankruptcy, which legally allows me to retain my house, and earn a net income of around $56K. a year, before I am legally committed to start repaying my creditors.

I can tell you, that I do not have a credit card in my name. I do not own a motor vehicle. I have no assets in my name. My wife, is however, not a debitor, and thus is unrestricted in her ownership of assets.

Regarding the apparent 'splurge' in five star hotels.... well, my Trustee was not interested in taking possession of my Advantage Plus & A-Club Membership cards.

But anyway, back to the topic.....

To hopefully clarify a little more....

I have spoken with AMEX myself ( as I was a secondary card holder to my wife's Primary card. I'm amazed that AMEX even wanted to speak with me !! ). They will commence a full investigation. They say, it could take several weeks.

After I declared Bankruptcy, my non AMEX credit card in question ( I'm putting it this way, as not to infer anything against a particular bank ), closed off my internet access. I couldn't get transaction details. As I said, months went past, and I had no communication from this bank, that there was an unfinalised transaction.

As has been pointed out, I assumed, that both AMEX and the other bank knew what they were doing. ( if you can call it Good Faith ).

Another point is, that I often looked up my wife's AMEX account online. There was no indication of anything amiss, until the account suddenly showed a credit limit of double what it previously was. That was apparently due to the several thousand bouncing back. The way it showed up on the webpage, it didn't look like money had come into the account.... it just looked like they increased the credit limit. I thought this may have been because my wife attempted to close the account.... you know, they try to offer something to keep you interested.....

I really don't know how many times the money bounced, from one account to the other. I just know, that the account had been closed and cancelled for a few months, with two refund cheques made out to my wife, and AMEX cancelling all internet and telephone banking access....... and then claiming, she still has an account with several thousand owing..... and please pay $175. for the last three months interest !!!!

Even with this demand from AMEX to repay the funds + interest, the account still appears to be closed. There is no account that can be accessed via the net, or telephone. Is this what should happen ??

regards,
GORDO
 

russ

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So there were two refund cheques made out to your wife?
 

Rick93

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Yes. The first one, was for a few hundred. That was when the account was to be closed. They sent the cheque, closed the account, and sent a final statement ( about a month later ), clearly showing a zero balance.... and the words: " Your account is cancelled. Please do not pay anything ".

It was then another two months before another statement came out, showing an available credit limit of double what was previously. We made several phone calls to see what was going on, and was told by telephone staff, that the account wasn't actually closed, due to ' several thousand ' still in the account. " Would you like a refund cheque sent to your registered address? ". I think I joked at the time, saying something similar to: " Yes thanks, if you want to send us that money, we'll take it ".

They did. Now they want it back.....

regards,
GORDO
 

russ

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So you want to rely on a statement issued two months prior to AMEX sending your wife a cheque "out of the blue?"
 

CO BNE

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It was then another two months before another statement came out, showing an available credit limit of double what was previously. We made several phone calls to see what was going on, and was told by telephone staff, that the account wasn't actually closed, due to ' several thousand ' still in the account. " Would you like a refund cheque sent to your registered address? ". I think I joked at the time, saying something similar to: " Yes thanks, if you want to send us that money, we'll take it ".

They did. Now they want it back.....

The best scenario I would expect is if you returned the money and then could argue about the interest component and negate that.

However I'm assuming you have spent the money and I believe it would be difficult to argue you are in the right if you knew prior to accepting the cheque that it was a banking error and the money was not yours to have.
 

munitalP

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...the money was not yours to have.

Sums it up rather nicely I think...

And everyone at AFF who gave such good advice in previous threads to Gordon's heart felt plees for help - heres one of the reasons our AMEX fees have increased...



Mr!

:evil:
 

Rick93

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More of an explanation of circumstances, rather than ' pleading for heart felt sympathy '.

However, you appear to have made the final statement. I get the point.

GORDO
 

markis10

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Sums it up rather nicely I think...

And everyone at AFF who gave such good advice in previous threads to Gordon's heart felt plees for help - heres one of the reasons our AMEX fees have increased...



Mr!

:evil:


I really dont think assertions or personal attacks such as this have a home here, especially coming from a long standing member, in fact I am extremely appalled by your behaviour, if you have not got constructive comments to add to a thread then please refrain, it helps no one.
 

munitalP

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I really dont think assertions or personal attacks such as this have a home here, especially coming from a long standing member, in fact I am extremely appalled by your behaviour, if you have not got constructive comments to add to a thread then please refrain, it helps no one.

Markis10 - this is not an attack personal or other, I have only commented on what Gordon has posted in this thread and in others and made a single assumption in the previous post, one being that a part of the increase in AMEX fees attribute to the actions of people like Gordon whom owe money to AMEX and declear bankruptcy.

I for one have been on the receiving end of bad debt. Markis10, try walking into home tonight and telling your wife that she is about to loose her car, see what it's like to have the local auction house rummaging through your stuff to see what's sellable, try rebuilding your life to a level of where it was prior to the bad debtors ruining it - then you will perhaps understand that my comments are in fact not even close to being a personal attack on the OP

In fact, a post prior asking about a 2 month old statement is more personal to the OP than my post regarding the advice given, however, as everyone is entitled to free thought, I won't dwell on that point.

Mr!
 
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