Canberra Bids For Sydney's Second Airport

[pblackm]

If you look at the photo NM posted, just forward of the coughpit on the nose, you will see a bit of a bump - that's the in flight refueling point for the probe refueling system that the USAF uses.

I think the USAF has some B747 based E-5 aircraft with a bump where you descibe it behind the coughpit, but I did not think they ever did VIP duties....

Next time I'll take a photo. It was US Defence Secretary Gates. Australia certainly accorded his convoy VIP treatment - there were Police controlling traffic at every intersection and roundabout from the City to the airport. The usual morning peak traffic run of nearly one hour took less than 30 minutes.

 

[pblackm]

If you look at the photo NM posted, just forward of the coughpit on the nose, you will see a bit of a bump - that's the in flight refueling point for the probe refueling system that the USAF uses.

I think the USAF has some B747 based E-5 aircraft with a bump where you descibe it behind the coughpit, but I did not think they ever did VIP duties....

Well done- found it! Boeing E-4B "Command Post"
Aviation Photos: 73-1677

The second photo shows it at Fairbairn Feb 23 2008 and the viewing angle is similar to where we were standing. No Presidential seal - I am easily fooled.

 

[NM]

I stand corrected. It was a year ago. The 747 had a bump on top which looked like a small jet engine intake. One of the Defence guys that I was with told me that was a re-fueling port.

The two VC-25As of the USA Air Force that are used for presidential transports are the only 747 derivative aircraft that are capable of air to air refuelling (according to many wiki and other internet reference sites - maybe not completely authoritative sources but I can't find reference to any others). So you may well have seen a refuelling snorkel on the aircraft. But as GBW was not in Australia at the time, the aircraft would not have operating as Airforce One and does not carry that name anywhere on the aircraft. It would likely have been using the call sign SAM2800 or similar during its visit to Australia.

 

[NM]

Well done- found it! Boeing E-4B "Command Post"
Aviation Photos: 73-1677

The second photo shows it at Fairbairn Feb 23 2008 and the viewing angle is similar to where we were standing. No Presidential seal - I am easily fooled.

Ahh, the E4-Bs are not part of the SAM wing. It would be very rare (if ever) for one to use the Airforce One call sign as they would very rarely be carrying the President. He normally travels on the VC-25As. As far as I am aware and can determine from publicly available information, the E-4Bs are not equipped for air-to-air refuelling.

 

[markis10]

The two VC-25As of the USA Air Force that are used for presidential transports are the only 747 derivative aircraft that are capable of air to air refuelling (according to many wiki and other internet reference sites - maybe not completely authoritative sources but I can't find reference to any others).

All four E4B's operating as NEACP (now NAOC or National Airborne Operations Centre)are capable of in flight refueling and there is always one on standby for use by the president, when we had APEC last year there were two in country in addition to the VC-25A, one in Canberra and one was parked in BNE.

There are some pics here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/e-4b.htm

Wikipedia is hardly an authoritive source on defence matters, I prefer Janes . However there is an analysis of their replacement available online from the US Military that clearly states their capabilities:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA475844&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

"The E-4B NAOC is a militarized version of the Boeing 747-200. The aircraft can

seat up to 114 aircrew members with a range of 12 hours un-refueled, and the aircraft can
stay airborne for at least 72 hours with in-flight refueling. It was the first flight refueling​

airplane equipped with the advanced command, control and communication equipment." Page 21


The E4A upgrade to b included the inflight refueling capability. The VC-25As are lightweight show ponies compared to the E-4B's in terms of capabilities, not surprisingly its SECDEF's method of transport when he is seeking some duty free.

 

[NM]

Thanks markis10. Makes sense. Hence my comment "not completely authoritative sources " as I did expect the E4B would have the capability. Just that several references to the VC25A specifically identified them as the only ones with the capability. I wonder just how often the VC25s have actually been refuelled in the air except for training/testing purposes? Same for E4s.

VC25 is built for comfort. The E4 is where the real work is done.

 

[markis10]

Thanks markis10. Makes sense. Hence my comment "not completely authoritative sources " as I did expect the E4B would have the capability. Just that several references to the VC25A specifically identified them as the only ones with the capability. I wonder just how often the VC25s have actually been refuelled in the air except for training/testing purposes? Same for E4s..

I believe the E4B's have been refuelled in live missions quite often, one was actually airborne in Washington DC during 9/11 as an exercise that soon turned real, believe it was up for 48 hours and was airborne when the pentagon was hit, other long time use has included a secondary mission as a FEMA command post, most notably with hurricane relief efforts. It takes two full KC135 loads to be topped up fully,

I agree with many thinking the VC25's are the only inflight capable aircraft, as I suspect they get confused with the E4B's often, I thought the aircraft at Brisbane during APEC was a VC25 until I looked into it further.

 

[pblackm]

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA475844&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

"The E-4B NAOC is a militarized version of the Boeing 747-200. The aircraft can

seat up to 114 aircrew members with a range of 12 hours un-refueled, and the aircraft can
stay airborne for at least 72 hours with in-flight refueling. It was the first flight refueling​

airplane equipped with the advanced command, control and communication equipment." Page 21


Thanks markis10 - Thank you - I have skimmed the MBA report and it will make for enjoyable reading.

 

[dot]

Well done- found it! Boeing E-4B "Command Post"
Aviation Photos: 73-1677

The second photo shows it at Fairbairn Feb 23 2008 and the viewing angle is similar to where we were standing. No Presidential seal - I am easily fooled.

ahhh - yes - E-4, not E-5 In my defence, I was out and about on my phone when I posted that.

On this image, you can see both the inflight refueling point on the nose and the additional radome/antenna enclosure on the top of the hump.

 

[markis10]

The bump is not a radome, its Virgins Live to Air antenna so SECDEF can get his fill of Foxtel

 

[NM]

The bump is not a radome, its Virgins Live to Air antenna so SECDEF can get his fill of Foxtel

And CNN! Otherwise how would they know what is happening in the real world!

Apparently there was a significant upgrade to the "IFE" on the VC25s after 2001 when they found they could not even watch CNN or other live media feeds.

 

[medhead]

I wonder just how often the VC25s have actually been refuelled in the air except for training/testing purposes? Same for E4s.

VC25 is built for comfort. The E4 is where the real work is done.

Remember that George W bush was at an undisclosed location during 9/11 after he left the school. I seem to remember it was for an extended period, but maybe no more than 24 hours. Anyway, I always assumed we was circling over virginia or texas somewhere in AF1. If that is correct, perhaps they had to refuel a VC25 then.

 

[NM]

Remember that George W bush was at an undisclosed location during 9/11 after he left the school. I seem to remember it was for an extended period, but maybe no more than 24 hours. Anyway, I always assumed we was circling over virginia or texas somewhere in AF1. If that is correct, perhaps they had to refuel a VC25 then.

Of course this is not an official or indisputable source, but does suggest the destinations involved that day:

One of the most dramatic episodes aboard Air Force One happened during the September 11 attacks. President George W. Bush was interrupted at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida after the attack on the World Trade Center South Tower in New York City. He flew on a VC-25 from Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana and then to Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska before returning to Washington. The next day, officials at the White House and the Justice Department explained that President Bush did this because there was "specific and credible information that the White House and Air Force One were also intended targets."[9] The White House later could not confirm evidence of a threat made against Air Force One, and subsequent investigation found the original claim to be a result of miscommunication

I doubt air-to-air refuelling was required for the journey if the report is accurate.

 

[medhead]

Fair enough - I figured if there was a code share on the ICE, you would earn points and SCs... probably a bit naive of me.

It seems, I was wrong. Despite the wording of Qantas conditions of carriage, a family member has, in fact, been given points and SC on the ICE QF codeshare (QF 3935?) - including the minimum 1000 points guarantee.