Bumped Onto Jetstar To Japan

[JohnK]

So I have quantified my view of why I think the two economy products are similar. Would you like to quantify why you believe JQ economy (as booked on QF codeshare for an FF award holder) is "well below" QF economy product?

Very good post.

I think we have discussed something similar in the past. My reasons why I believe JQi economy product is inferior to QFs economy product

• Customer service (or lack thereof)
• Cabin crew
• Higher priced flexible economy class airfares to earn points and status in QFF
• No recognition of QFF status
• No QC or Business class check with relevant status
• Not a member of OneWorld
• Interlining of baggage with other OneWorld carriers
• Leather covered seats
• No additional luggage allowance with relevant status
• No free meal and additional snacks throughout flight
• No free drinks throughout flight
• Priority luggage

 

[Evan]

John,
I agree with your points but in this case some of them are just relevent, i think NM was saying given the current situation there is not a lot of difference.
If you were paying for tickets then the situation is completely different.

Evan


Customer service (or lack thereof)
>Probably
Cabin crew
>hmmm, ok, didn't notice much difference
Higher priced flexible economy class airfares to earn points and status in QFF
>Fair call but not relevent in this case
No recognition of QFF status
> True, not nice
No QC or Business class check with relevant status
> Pain in the you know what ! especially when the lines are huge
Not a member of OneWorld
> But QF is and QF flight numbers can and are used
Interlining of baggage with other OneWorld carriers
> Could be an issue, but not in this case
Leather covered seats
> I dis-like them also
No additional luggage allowance with relevant status
> Didn't know this, and i think that is no good at all !!! (Given JQi's 15kg limit)
No free meal and additional snacks throughout flight
> But this person will receive
No free drinks throughout flight
> true
Priority luggage
> true, no good but live with it i guess.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

How long before passengers who have payed a premium for SYD-LHR economy on QF and at the last minute are told the scheduled service for the day has been cancelled and either take JQi economy or your money back.

I'm fairly confident QF will retain LHR route.

 

[serfty]

... Now compare that with the originally scheduled QF 767-300 aircraft which does not have Slim-Line seats and has a reasonably uniform pitch of 31 inches. ...

I am here to say that ALL mainline Qantas aircraft have "Slimline" seating in WHY.

See here: Economy (Select "On Board" the "Your Seat")

 

[serfty]

This is what a Passenger flying in "WHY" on a QF codeshare on a JQ operated flight gets above the normal JQ Pax:

• Two inflight meal services
• a complimentary drink served with each meal
• a complimentary bottle of water
• a complimentary blanket
• a headset for viewing the overhead video screen

Note the "Comfort Pack" is not offered, only a blanket.

More here: Qantas Industry Sales Site - Policies and Procedures - QF/ JQ Codeshare - Inflight Product

Two inflight meal services (one for a shorter flight to DPS) are provided for commercial Qantas codeshare customers as well as a complimentary drink served with each meal (including wine or beer).

Each passenger is also provided with a complimentary bottle of water. Any additional refreshments and drinks are available for purchase.

Qantas codeshare customers are also provided with a headset for viewing the overhead video screen and audio as well as a complimentary blanket however, Qantas codeshare passengers are not provided with the whole comfort pack.

 

[d15.in.oz]

Things that are better on QF: *Recognition of FF status

As you have gone on to quote the various aspects of status privileges on QF flights underneath this point... may I make one slight clarification, that there is some recognition of QFF status at check-in with regard to seat (re-)assignment! (This includes JQ check-in, not just QP check-in.) And as I posted previously, I suspect once on board a JQi flight some FAs may be aware of your status! (Just a tingly feeling I get in my left toe, but still…)

 

[NM]

I think we have discussed something similar in the past. My reasons why I believe JQi economy product is inferior to QFs economy product

John, these may all be true, but many are not relevant to the OP's situation. We don't know their QF FF status and hence entitlement to QF FF benefits. We do know there is no impact to them for baggage interlining.

• Customer service (or lack thereof)
• Cabin crew
• Higher priced flexible economy class airfares to earn points and status in QFF
• No recognition of QFF status
• No QC or Business class check with relevant status
• Not a member of OneWorld
• Interlining of baggage with other OneWorld carriers
• Leather covered seats
• No additional luggage allowance with relevant status
• No free meal and additional snacks throughout flight
• No free drinks throughout flight
• Priority luggage

Customer service and cabin crew are very subjective. I have seen many many people who have complained about the customer service and cabin crew on just about every airline, including Qantas. There are good and bad crew members on just about every airline. I have not seen many complaints about JQ International's cabin crew, especially since some initial reports of them receiving some on-the-job training when they first commences operations.

The cost of airfares is not relevent to ricco's situation. He has used QF FF points for an award redemption for two seats to Osaka. However, one point that has not yet been made is that he will have paid the QF fuel surcharge rate for his original QF booking, which are currently $102 each way. I don't know what the current JQ fuel surcharge for the same routing would be. But it it is different then I believe ricco would be justified in expecting a refund of the difference.

I covered the lack of QF FF benefits in my previous post. Without knowing ricco's status it is not possible to judge that impact. But do note that non-OneWorld benefits (such as priority check-in for Qantas Club members, extra baggage allowance and priority baggage) would not be available for an economy award on any other partner airline, including BA, CX etc.

I really don't see how JQ not being a member of OneWorld has any impact on ricco's situation .

Personally I would prefer a JQ A330 new leather seat over a QF 767 old cloth seat. Just need to wear appropriate clothes as noted by Serfty. But as has already been mentioned in other threads, some people prefer the old QF 767 seats . And when combined with the poor excuse for IFE on the 763 (I always find the 763 IFE audio is very poor, with a constant high-pitches whine), the A330 wins out for me.

As has already been mentioned, the meal is free (actually its two means and beverages on JQ flights to Osaka, for which JQ usually charge $25) . It is only additional beverages that would need to be purchased.

So for ricco's situation, I still don't a major difference that could be described as "well below" QF's economy product on that route.

 

[NM]

I am here to say that ALL mainline Qantas aircraft have "Slimline" seating in WHY.

See here: Economy (Select "On Board" the "Your Seat")

Ahh, goes to show how long since I have say in Y on an international config 763. So then the seat "space" is pretty much the same on both aircraft types.

 

[ricco]

NM - very illuminating information. I'm a newbie to this site. How is it that you know all this? My QFF status and that of my wife's is bronze.
Cheers

 

[NM]

NM - very illuminating information. I'm a newbie to this site. How is it that you know all this? My QFF status and that of my wife's is bronze.
Cheers

ok, so as a QF Bronze FF member, you would not have had any of the FF status-related benefits on QF such as priority check-in, priority baggage, extra baggage allowance etc anyway.

So in my view, the change from QF to JQ is minor. But do ask for some compensation for the need to purchase additional beverages and ask if you are due any refund of fuel surcharges that were paid at the QF rate.

I also recommend you pay the $10 for the personal video player unless you have your own entertainment.

I will interested to know about your experience and views regarding customer service and cabin crew once you return.

 

[d15.in.oz]

The cost of airfares is not relevent to ricco's situation...

NM, the perception of value is important. From your posts; you appear to have a crisp, detailed and comprehensive appreciation of value… but for others it is a much more “touchy feely” rationalisation.

Put simply QAN has successfully marketed a perception that the JQi economy price is generally lower than an equivalent QF economy price (for a financial ticket). Fair enough you might think?

Thing is, that in achieving the above logical perception they have also created the reverse value perception in many peoples’ minds (as evident across multiple threads and replies [other than yours] in this forum). That is, JQi economy is of a lower value than QF economy.

Therefore, to pay the same price (in this case with points) for the JQi service as the QF service, is “not good value”! (Additionally, many QFF members may feel that they have suffered a subtle “enhancement” to the value of their points.)

While I can appreciate your analytical objectiveness, the “human equation” appears very strong amongst posters on this forum!

 

[Happy Dude]

If Ricco and his wife are treated like QF customers who happen to be on a JQi flight, then there's probably not a lot of difference, just semantics and subjective judgements.

IMHO, they shouldn't have to purchase drinks after their first free one, and they should be entertained. The QF flight would have a movie showing on a screen somewhere. If JQi don't have free movies, then that should be provided to them also.

I'd like to see what happens if they check in with baggage over the JQi allowance. In my non-status experience, QF has never enforced the allowance (I had 60kgs on one occasion!), whilst JQ (domestic) are very quick to ping for anything over 22kgs (2 kg grace - wohoo!). Of course, I'm assuming that JQi would adopt the same approach?

 

[JohnK]

So for ricco's situation, I still don't a major difference that could be described as "well below" QF's economy product on that route.

NM, the points you raise are very valid but I am looking at it from a different angle. I am not saying I am right just my opinion on the situation.

If you look at pricing of a JQi economy seat to a QF economy seat there is notable difference in price. I am also certain that the product offered by each carrier is different, therefore the difference in price charged. I am not sure of the exact difference in airfare prices, JQi vs QF on a route by route basis, but i would guess that it would be somewhere between 30%-50% more for a QF ticket. Please do not quote me on this as I have not checked each route.

Now if I have paid, either by $$$ or FF points, for a QF economy seat then this is the least I would expect. Shunting me off to JQi is a downgrade. QF proves this by charging more for QF ticket over a JQi ticket. Where the QFF program has made a major error is placing equal value to FF points needed for awards on QF and JQi.

To me paying $$$ or FF points for an economy seat is of equal relevance. If I have a QF booking and I was offered the JQi economy product instead, for whatever reason, then I would be asking for the relevant compensation. In the case of a paid ticket then a refund of the difference in price between the QF economy and JQi economy product + compensation for been downgraded. In the case of FF points used for the ticket then a partial refund of points, based on the % difference in $$$ price for the route, + compensation for being downgraded.

I think that it is quite clear the JQi economy product is inferior. Whether the aircraft is newer than QF is irrelevant.

I will not be purchasing a seat on JQi flight in the near future. Forcing me onto a JQi operated flight? I don't think so unless my life was in immediate danger!

 

[NM]

IMHO, they shouldn't have to purchase drinks after their first free one, and they should be entertained. The QF flight would have a movie showing on a screen somewhere. If JQi don't have free movies, then that should be provided to them also.

They will het two free drinks (one with each of the two meals). But I do agree that there needs to be some form of compensation for any additional drinks - either provide the QF coded passengers with some form of vouchers or a reasonable monetary refund to the value of say 2 additional drinks per person.

JQ does offer movies on the main cabin screens just like QF does. And they will provide headphones free of charge to QF coded passengers. The difference between QF and JQ as far as entertainment is concerned is that JQ provide the option for the passenger to pay an additional $10 for their own personal use of an on-demand video player loaded with a range of movies, while QF 767 flights to not have the option for their economy class passengers.

 

[serfty]

... The QF flight would have a movie showing on a screen somewhere. If JQi don't have free movies, then that should be provided to them also. ...

JOi do have "main screen" entertainment; people travelling of QF Codeshares do get a "complimentary a headset for viewing the overhead video screen".

 

[d15.in.oz]

JQ does offer movies on the main cabin screens just like QF does.

Movie (singular) and many cheaper quality TV programs last time I flew JQi... (Nothing like the movie marathon on QF mainscreen.)

It's lowering costs by degrees, a little trimmed off here (fabric vs LCC grade leather), a little there (less royalties for movies), all adds up in the end or why bother doing it?

 

[NM]

NM, the points you raise are very valid but I am looking at it from a different angle. I am not saying I am right just my opinion on the situation.

Yes, I understand you are looking at a holistic view of QF vs JQ, while I am focusing on ricco's specific example as posted in this thread.

If you look at pricing of a JQi economy seat to a QF economy seat there is notable difference in price. I am also certain that the product offered by each carrier is different, therefore the difference in price charged. I am not sure of the exact difference in airfare prices, JQi vs QF on a route by route basis, but i would guess that it would be somewhere between 30%-50% more for a QF ticket. Please do not quote me on this as I have not checked each route.

Well lets look at ricco's example as closely as we are able. Since the QF web site is not available currently to price the QF fare options, I will work from the tools I have available. I selected some random dates that I think are not affected by peak travel times etc, being SYD-Japan on 1st May, and returning 10th May. FOr JQ I have considered Sydney to Osaka, and for QF I have considered Sydney to Tokyo. I will exclude taxes from the equation as they may vary between the different airports used.

JQ JetSaver Fares are available on those dates for $530 outbound and $538 inbound. A quick check of days around those dates shows this is a common JetFlex fare cost for this route. Now add the FeedMe and Comfort packs for $25 and $7 respectively for each flight, and I make that $1132 total for the return (ex taxes and charges).

According to ExpertFlyer, for the same travel dates the cheapest QF fare for SYD-NRT return is a V class fare for $1172 (again ex taxes and charges).

I think the 30-50% fare difference is what JQ would like us to believe, but in reality is only available when they have their special deals and promotions. In ricco's case, the cost difference would seem to be more like $20 each way, which is probably about the value of 2 or three additional beverages on board.

If you believe their is a 30-50% fare difference between the cheapest QF and JQ fares on similar routes then I think you have succumbed to the JQ marketing hype rather than life reality. Yes their promotional deals may be good, but regular JetSaver fares are not much different to QF fares when you include the meals etc.

And note that ricco was also offered a refund of 6000 FF points (still don't know if that is per person, per sector or for the whole itinerary). Whether this refund of FF points is adequate compensation for the change is something only ricco can determine based on his perception of the value of the various products.

I think that it is quite clear the JQi economy product is inferior. Whether the aircraft is newer than QF is irrelevant.

I will not be purchasing a seat on JQi flight in the near future. Forcing me onto a JQi operated flight? I don't think so unless my life was in immediate danger!

Your view is very clear and obviously firmly entrenched.

 

[NM]

Movie (singular) and many cheaper quality TV programs last time I flew JQi... (Nothing like the movie marathon on QF mainscreen.)

It's lowering costs by degrees, a little trimmed off here (fabric vs LCC grade leather), a little there (less royalties for movies), all adds up in the end or why bother doing it?

Personally I would pay the $10 for the personal video player. just be sure to book it on-line as there are only a limited number available for hire by economy class passengers. That is less than the cost of a movie ticket and reasonable value for an 9+ hour flight.

 

[JohnK]

Well lets look at ricco's example as closely as we are able. Since the QF web site is not available currently to price the QF fare options, I will work from the tools I have available. I selected some random dates that I think are not affected by peak travel times etc, being SYD-Japan on 1st May, and returning 10th May. FOr JQ I have considered Sydney to Osaka, and for QF I have considered Sydney to Tokyo. I will exclude taxes from the equation as they may vary between the different airports used.

JQ JetSaver Fares are available on those dates for $530 outbound and $538 inbound. A quick check of days around those dates shows this is a common JetFlex fare cost for this route. Now add the FeedMe and Comfort packs for $25 and $7 respectively for each flight, and I make that $1132 total for the return (ex taxes and charges).

According to ExpertFlyer, for the same travel dates the cheapest QF fare for SYD-NRT return is a V class fare for $1172 (again ex taxes and charges).

I think the 30-50% fare difference is what JQ would like us to believe, but in reality is only available when they have their special deals and promotions. In ricco's case, the cost difference would seem to be more like $20 each way, which is probably about the value of 2 or three additional beverages on board.

If you believe their is a 30-50% fare difference between the cheapest QF and JQ fares on similar routes then I think you have succumbed to the JQ marketing hype rather than life reality. Yes their promotional deals may be good, but regular JetSaver fares are not much different to QF fares when you include the meals etc.

On JQi SYD-KIX for above dates you mention the JetSaver airfare is $1378 including taxes but increases to $1442 if you include FeedMe and Comfort packs. Now if you were silly enough to want QFF status and FF points the Jetflex airfare is $2398 including taxes but increases to $2462 if you include FeedMe and Comfort packs. Wow! The equivalent sale airfare on QF is $1680 including taxes but returning a day earlier.

Now the difference of JetFlex to QF sale airfare is $238, which is ~15%. Yes I know not quite the 30-50% I mentioned earlier but I did mention that figure may not be accurate.

To be able to save $238 from an airfare many people would jump at the chance. To me it is a significant amount but nowhere near enough of a saving to change my decision to fly QF, plus I get QFF status, FF points and all the other benefits mentioned earlier.

I will keep on saying it until I am black and blue in the face. If you are going to offer a product like JQi then it will need to be priced at least 30-50% below QF economy. Why do we keep seeing JQi sales at giveaway prices. Trouble filling their aircraft?

 

[NM]

On JQi SYD-KIX for above dates you mention the JetSaver airfare is $1378 including taxes but increases to $1442 if you include FeedMe and Comfort packs. Now if you were silly enough to want QFF status and FF points the Jetflex airfare is $2398 including taxes but increases to $2462 if you include FeedMe and Comfort packs. Wow! The equivalent sale airfare on QF is $1680 including taxes but returning a day earlier.

Now the difference of JetFlex to QF sale airfare is $238, which is ~15%. Yes I know not quite the 30-50% I mentioned earlier but I did mention that figure may not be accurate.

I think this just goes to show that the cost of airfares has little to do the underlying operating costs or the product offered. Fares are based on how much the airline thinks they can sell them for.

With all the different fare types offered and all the different conditions and varying availability, its really impossible to compare accurately - and that is just the way the airlines want to keep it :evil: .