Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

[MEL_Traveller]

And as I said your study is basically an observational study with wide confidence intervals. You place too much reliance on that udy. The Danish study compared households with a covid patient and the difference in catching covid in houses where the others did or did not wear masks was very small and the most you could claim was that masks were 1 or 2% effective. Not an ideal study but one of the better ones done.

You yourself have said earlier in this thread that masks are potentially effective as a preventative measure when worn by the infected person. Are you retracting that opinion?

 

[CMA222]

If masks are so ineffective why do surgeons bother to wear them when operating ?

 

[drron]

You yourself have said earlier in this thread that masks are potentially effective as a preventative measure when worn by the infected person. Are you retracting that opinion?

Of course not but you are actually quite unlikely to meet an infected person. New covid cases in Australia are now slightlly under 15000 aday. Some of those will wear a mask and others will be isolating. So the actual number of infected people you meet about 1 in 200 may be infected

On the question of surgeons wearing masks the reason is to reduce post operative infection -that is to protect the patient not the surgeon.

@MEL_Traveller we are never going to agree on masks and further discussion is pointless on that subject.
What concerns me is how you minimise the side effects of lockdowns,isolation and general disruption to quality of life.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Of course not but you are actually quite unlikely to meet an infected person. New covid cases in Australia are now slightlly under 15000 aday. Some of those will wear a mask and others will be isolating. So the actual number of infected people you meet about 1 in 200 may be infected

On the question of surgeons wearing masks the reason is to reduce post operative infection -that is to protect the patient not the surgeon.

@MEL_Traveller we are never going to agree on masks and further discussion is pointless on that subject.
What concerns me is how you minimise the side effects of lockdowns,isolation and general disruption to quality of life.

Indeed … to protect the patient, not the surgeon. Which confirms support for those wearing masks to help prevent them infecting others.

Wearing masks and lockdowns are not in the same category. We have moved on from lockdowns.

Quality of life - especially for our casual workers and those in the medical profession - would be improved for everyone if we can miminise the spread. People wearing masks in high density setting for an hour has minimal impact impact on their quality of life, but could have a major impact on some else’s quality of life if they are stopped from getting covid.

1 in 200 means about 1 person per crowded train carriage on the morning and evening commute in sydney and melbourne.

And that highlights the flaw in the argument of those opposed to wearing masks in high density settings… ‘we are concerned about quality of life, but we won’t wear a mask to stop us spreading our infection to someone else’. It is a one-sided concern about quality of life!

 

[ellen10]

My daughter inlaw is a high school teacher and she says she has never seen such major problems with the students, since covid. Not only learning attitudes and skills, often cannot or do not want to engage with classroom discussions, discipline and also really bad socialisation schools and attitudes. In all her 15 years of teaching she has never seen it so bad and is quite dispondent about teaching and the general support for teachers and students.

 

[drron]

No @MEL_Traveller this statement of yours highlights the problem in your argument.
"1 in 200 means about 1 person per crowded train carriage on the morning and evening commute in sydney and melbourne.

And that highlights the flaw in the argument of those opposed to wearing masks in high density settings… ‘we are concerned about quality of life, but we won’t wear a mask to stop us spreading our infection to someone else’. It is a one-sided concern about quality of life!'

That one person isn't close to every person in that carriage. And every infected person doesn't necessarily spread their virus. As well there are many who have some resistance to catching the virus so once again you over emphasise the benefits and ignore the elephant in the room which is the sometimes very severe negative effects that the covid response has caused. We will be paying the price in economic,health and psychological ways for many years.

 

[Pushka]

My daughter inlaw is a high school teacher and she says she has never seen such major problems with the students, since covid. Not only learning attitudes and skills, often cannot or do not want to engage with classroom discussions, discipline and also really bad socialisation schools and attitudes. In all her 15 years of teaching she has never seen it so bad and is quite dispondent about teaching and the general support for teachers and students.

Exactly this and this is why University students are receiving a very poor tertiary education right now. Those days of discussion in tutorials and workshops form an integral part of that education and they have simply disappeared. Nuances of communication like facial expression and body language don't exist on a zoom session. The outcomes of this will play out in the coming years.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No @MEL_Traveller this statement of yours highlights the problem in your argument.
"1 in 200 means about 1 person per crowded train carriage on the morning and evening commute in sydney and melbourne.

And that highlights the flaw in the argument of those opposed to wearing masks in high density settings… ‘we are concerned about quality of life, but we won’t wear a mask to stop us spreading our infection to someone else’. It is a one-sided concern about quality of life!'

That one person isn't close to every person in that carriage. And every infected person doesn't necessarily spread their virus. As well there are many who have some resistance to catching the virus so once again you over emphasise the benefits and ignore the elephant in the room which is the sometimes very severe negative effects that the covid response has caused. We will be paying the price in economic,health and psychological ways for many years.

This is advocating an ‘all or nothing’ approach.

While lockdowns had significant economic impacts, it doesn’t follow that ending lockdowns must also end basic protocols such as masks and social distancing, where appropriate.

Wearing a mask on public transport is not going to have economic or health impacts for years to come, for anyone. The only outcome is a benefit of limiting the spread.

 

[CMA222]

On the question of surgeons wearing masks the reason is to reduce post operative infection -that is to protect the patient not the surgeon.

So there is a potential positive outcome of wearing masks ?

 

[jakeseven7]

So there is a potential positive outcome of wearing masks ?

Well my friend works at 3M and they all got an ENORMOUS bonus, so that’s a plus!

 

[CMA222]

Well my friend works at 3M and they all got an ENORMOUS bonus, so that’s a plus!

OK let me rephrase so the intent of my post is taken seriously:

So there is a potentially positive HEALTH outcome from wearing masks ?

 

[JohnM]

My daughter inlaw is a high school teacher and she says she has never seen such major problems with the students, since covid. Not only learning attitudes and skills, often cannot or do not want to engage with classroom discussions, discipline and also really bad socialisation schools and attitudes. In all her 15 years of teaching she has never seen it so bad and is quite dispondent about teaching and the general support for teachers and students.

Which state? Presumably in one with the draconian lockdowns?

 

[jakeseven7]

OK let me rephrase so the intent of my post is taken seriously:

So there is a potentially positive HEALTH outcome from wearing masks ?

Well I do have a potential positive health outcome too - our local council in Brisbane had to employ people to go around and pick up all the used masks blowing all around our neighbourhood, so that gave those people a job with physical exercise which is a good health outcome also

 

[drron]

This is advocating an ‘all or nothing’ approach.

While lockdowns had significant economic impacts, it doesn’t follow that ending lockdowns must also end basic protocols such as masks and social distancing, where appropriate.

Wearing a mask on public transport is not going to have economic or health impacts for years to come, for anyone. The only outcome is a benefit of limiting the spread.

Only if worn by someone infected. At the moment that means 1 in 200 in Australia and that is likely to be even more who don't need to wear a mask in the future.

As to surgeons mask wearing it is also proof that masks are not totally protective as post op infections still occur all to frequently. Plus they are preventing the spread of bacteria which are larger organisms than virus sp much more likely to be caught in your mask. Basically irrelevant to the current viral discussion especiall as the masks surgeons wear are surgical masks which have been shown to be much less effective than N95 masks.

 

[ellen10]

Which state? Presumably in one with the draconian lockdowns?

NSW, its been a tough couple of years for students and teachers.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Only if worn by someone infected. At the moment that means 1 in 200 in Australia and that is likely to be even more who don't need to wear a mask in the future.

As to surgeons mask wearing it is also proof that masks are not totally protective as post op infections still occur all to frequently. Plus they are preventing the spread of bacteria which are larger organisms than virus sp much more likely to be caught in your mask. Basically irrelevant to the current viral discussion especiall as the masks surgeons wear are surgical masks which have been shown to be much less effective than N95 masks.

The whole discussion has *only* concerned masks being worn by those infected. Of course as people don’t know they are infected for the first day or so, mask mandates cover everyone in high-density environments.

For people living in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, the ‘1 in 200’ would occur once every minute when catching public transport, being in supermarkets or shopping centres, or just being in the CBD on a Friday or Saturday night.

 

[drron]

Sorry once again you believe way too much in the art of mask wearing.
There may indeed be 200 people in a Sydney or Melbourne rail carriage in peak hours but no one is exposed to every one in the same carriage.
If I know I am positive I will and did wear a mask. But I am not going to force everyone else who is negative or unaware of their status to wear one.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sorry once again you believe way too much in the art of mask wearing.
There may indeed be 200 people in a Sydney or Melbourne rail carriage in peak hours but no one is exposed to every one in the same carriage.
If I know I am positive I will and did wear a mask. But I am not going to force everyone else who is negative or unaware of their status to wear one.

No one is saying mask wearing is 100% effective. But there aren’t many safety measures that are 100% effective. It’s like you’re saying you’re only going to wear a seatbelt in a car if you know you’re going to have an accident.

The one infected person in a rail carriage won’t infect everyone. But if the mask stops one other person being infected that’s an economic and health and physiological benefit.

 

[drron]

Did you read my last post. I said I would and did wera a mask when positive and would encourage others to do so but I would not force anybody to wear a mask just in case they were positive and didn't know it. That would be, excuse the pun, overkill.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Did you read my last post. I said I would and did wera a mask when positive and would encourage others to do so but I would not force anybody to wear a mask just in case they were positive and didn't know it. That would be, excuse the pun, overkill.

If people know they are infected they should be at home isolating.

It’s the one or two days where they don’t know, are infectious, and out and about circulating that the mask wearing may be of benefit to the wider population.