Australian Census 2021

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Getting further off-topic, but we will have a Census in August - but that will probably take "forever" to get basic statistics out like population (meaning currently in Australia eg citizens, permanent residents, other visa holders). Apart from age, the plan is everyone in Australia regardless of immigration status can get the vaccine.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Getting further off-topic, but we will have a Census in August - but that will probably take "forever" to get basic statistics out like population (meaning currently in Australia eg citizens, permanent residents, other visa holders)

Jedi knights rule!

 

[Lynda2475]

Getting further off-topic, but we will have a Census in August - but that will probably take "forever" to get basic statistics out like population (meaning currently in Australia eg citizens, permanent residents, other visa holders). Apart from age, the plan is everyone in Australia regardless of immigration status can get the vaccine

The census should be online (and hopefully working this time) so really shouldn't take that long to compile results (of course this is government so will take ages). I do notice they are advertising it heavily on radio stressing need to give serious answers stating how the data is used.

But they don't really need census data to identify the number of citizens, PRs and visa holders as that is information already held in other government systems. And even in AFF we have had reports of a international student (so no citizen, non PR) without a Medicare card being able to get vaccinated.

In fact most of the data gathered is available elsewhere, I mean they ask about PT usage when the states could provide that info from Opal/Myki card usage and to be honest data over a year of real use is more valid than asking people how they got to work on a single day.

With the recent NSW Health updates to exposure sites the virus is popping up further and further away from Bondi.

ie Bossley Park, Edmonson Park, Wahroonga and Rydalmere,

This isn't new, there were cases outside of Bondi from this cluster well before lockdown began, infact the largest spreader event the West Hoxton Birthday Party was in South West Sydney (as are Bosley Park and Edmonson Park).

 

[RooFlyer]

But they don't really need census data to identify the number of citizens,

You know it's more than about numbers? Spatial distribution for example for infrastructure planning ( eg health services). Including counting the homeless.

In fact most of the data gathered is available elsewhere, I mean they ask about PT usage when the states could provide that info from Opal/Myki card usage and to be honest data over a year of real use is more valid than asking people how they got to work on a single day.

Again, so far off the mark is barely worth pointing out. Do you realise some states ( cough Tas cough is one) don't have electronic public transport cards, let alone 'Opal/ Myki'? And would you do long term planning based on PT usage over - what time period this year? Or would it be best to count it at the same time as every 5 years previously and do the planning off the comparative numbers?

Wouldn't it be nice to compare the how and where of people in a pandemic Vs 'normal' years, at the same time of year?

There is so much data the census provides, importantly with a time of year/ 5 year regularity baseline to see trends, relevant to health and every other part of lives, I'm simply amazed at your post.

 

[Lynda2475]

You know it's more than about numbers?

My comment related to why we don't need the census to be able to distribute vaccine to non citizens. Something which is already happening and needs to complete before the results of census will be available.

Census should not reveal that we have more PRs or people in country on visas than we already know about from border force.

Spatial distribution for example for infrastructure planning ( eg health services). Including counting the homeless.

Never disputed that.

Again, so far off the mark is barely worth pointing out. Do you realise some states ( cough Tas cough is one) don't have electronic public transport cards, let alone 'Opal/ Myki'? And would you do long term planning based on PT usage over - what time period this year? Or would it be best to count it at the same time as every 5 years previously and do the planning off the comparative numbers?

Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? We live in the age of big data, we will get better insight by using multiple sources.

Every census I have done has landed on a day where I've not followed my usual work patterns, so every time it fails to capture my usual usage. I think the questioning could be improved to ask about usual usage not a single day.

BTW Tas is in the minority for lack of electronic ticketing for PT. NSW, ACT, Vic, Qld, SA and WA all have transport cards (and where paper tickets are used they are computer issued). Im not sure about NT.

Wouldn't it be nice to compare the how and where of people in a pandemic Vs 'normal' years, at the same time of year?

Will this be asked? Also if one of the larger states is in a lock down on census night this year it will skew results, as doesn't reflect the trips that would normally be taken (it would make it look like PT usage has declined which isn't the case). You need to look at more data over a longer period of time to properly plan PT.

There is so much data the census provides, importantly with a time of year/ 5 year regularity baseline to see trends, relevant to health and every other part of lives, I'm simply amazed at your post.

Again you have made an incorrect assumption - I never said we shouldn't do a census. I just think it needs to ask some questions differently and ask some extra questions to get the most of the opportunity. And then planning needs to augment census data with other trend data to get the best and most complete picture.

With census' moving online and not being such a huge manual tasks to administer and collate responses, we could also look at doing them more frequently.

 

[RooFlyer]

Why do they have to be mutually exclusive?

Because the census is a constant snapshot at a point of time and can be compared through time. 'Big data's is collected through different methodologies ( even state to state wrt health), different timings, ( ditto) different participations, different objectives, different underlying assumptions ( ditto, etc).

Will this be asked?

You are always asked your location on census night (although there is a bit of variation now they give perople some period to do it on-line). Some people are always away from home. Again, its trends that are useful as much as the raw data, especially for long term planning, such as where to build hospitals.

Again you have made an incorrect assumption - I never said we shouldn't do a census.

Incorrect assumption? Hmmmm ... where did I say or imply that you said that ( note I'm merely applying your line of discussion back to you, sorry ).


I've always elect to do the census on paper and tick to have it retained for release in ?70 years with name attached. Family historians in the future will thank me. .

 

[Lynda2475]

you are always asked your location on census night

But that is different question to would you be wherever that is if not for the pandemic?

Because the census is a constant snapshot at a point of time and can be compared through time.

They added the internet question to census only recently, so what they capture does evolve over time.

i've always elect to do the census on paper and tick to have it retained for release in ?70 years with name attached. Family historians in the future will thank me

That's nice, but i predict this will be one of the last (if not the last) with a paper option. In future, our ancestors descendants will likely be looking at our digital footprint (old facebook, linked in etc) which will give more insights than your home address, job title, income and religion you identify with from the census.

 

[RooFlyer]

They added the internet question to census only recently, so what they capture does evolve over time.

Yes, but so? A non-sequiter I think.

That's nice, but i predict this will be one of the last (if not the last) with a paper option. In future, our ancestors will likely be looking at our digital footprint (old facebook, linked in etc) which will give more insights than your home address, job title, income and religion you identify with from the census.

My goodness, if our ancestors are to judge us by social media content Heaven help us! But not me, as I'm blisfully FB, Linkin in, Twitter etc free.

 

[RooFlyer]

Happy days, a separate thread.

 

[TheRealTMA]

You know it's more than about numbers? Spatial distribution for example for infrastructure planning ( eg health services). Including counting the homeless.



..

Thanks why one should always add one of more "overseas" visitors in your house tonight when you fill in the census form!

 

[AIRwin]

In future, our ancestors will likely be looking at our digital footprint (old facebook, linked in etc) which will give more insights than your home address, job title, income and religion you identify with from the census.

My goodness, if our ancestors are to judge us by social media content Heaven help us!

You do mean descendants not ancestors?

 

[RooFlyer]

You do mean descendants not ancestors?

Arrgh! I've done that before!

 

[Lynda2475]

you do mean descendants not ancestors?

Oops, Yep, unless they invent time travel

Despite RooFlyers aghast at social media as a resource, some site like Linked-In will give a lot of insight to how a persons career changed over their life including who they worked for, location, what duties those jobs entailed and specific education completed. Whereas the census just asks for a title (not very illuminating unless its something obvious like teacher) and highest level of education.

Most people under a certain age share photos (can be privately or publicly) using Facebook or digital albums or other social apps. Visual resources are very interesting, fewer people print out photos these days and put them in physical albums to pass on. You can actually specify in your will if you want accounts closed upon your death or mode switched to memorial/archive.

I have worked and am currently working on a lot of big data projects, we use census data but the true value only comes when you use it in conjunction with other data sources.

 

[RooFlyer]

Despite RooFlyers aghast at social media as a resource, some site like Linked-In will give a lot of insight to how a persons career changed over their life including who they worked for, location, what duties those jobs entailed and specific education completed. Whereas the census just asks for a title (not very illuminating unless its something obvious like teacher) and highest level of education.

And if you believe everything thats posted on LinkedIn, I've got a bridge you might like to buy.

And no matter how much a fan you might be of gathering data off social media, how do you correct for the bias introduced by, say, technology use/ability; literacy level; people mostly excluded from on-line stuff, such as the homeless and some minorities? Its not possible, of course. Even tax office and social security data - it all contains some sort of bias or self selection and in many cases, inconsistancy in collection methodoligy and/or aggregation . So, how do you use that data for planning purposes? Oops, sorry those who are not tech savvy or illiterate or otherwise missed by 'big data' - "I guess we missed all of you."

Most people under a certain age share photos (can be privately or publicly) using Facebook or digital albums or other social apps. Visual resources are very interesting, fewer people print out photos these days and put them in physical albums to pass on. You can actually specify in your will if you want accounts closed upon your death or mode switched to memorial/archive.

Sure; but just how much can you glean from cat photos for national or local planning purposes? "Prime Minister, we now know that there are more tortiseshell cats in Darwin than budgies, so we must put more budget resources there! "

.
Again, I'll make the point, but I doubt you'll appreciate it, that the census gathers data on a consistant basis, nationwide at specified intervals. Everyone gets the same questions, at the same time (give or take with the on-line version). And because all the responses are given under the same conditions and at the same time, unrealted data can be linked (for example, income with place of living; english speaking at home (or not) with other metrics). Unlike aggregating Facebook data with tax data with LinkedIn with school enrollments. Census is not perfect,# but the imperfections are treated the same so the data is consistant within and between censuses. And yes, some people avoid it, some give wrong answers, some can't be found etc etc. Just like voting at elections. These omissions etc occur every census so the trends remain valid and its the trends that are just as useful as the point data.

Anyway I'll leave Big Data to keep trawling the cat photos on Facebook to get the big picture.

# Next post.

 

[RooFlyer]

# More seriously than the use of cat photos on Facebook and Instagram, anyone who watched The West Wing might remember an alternative to Census - which is expensive, takes a long time to collate and analyse and has the flaws I mentioned above.

That's using sampling - instead of trying to poll every household/everybody, you carefully choose a representative sample of the population and derive the bigger picture from that.

The counter argument? OK - lets elect our Parliaments based on the NewsPoll in the Australian.

No more of a fan of census by sampling than I am of using Facebook for national planning.

 

[kpc]

Watch the server crash again like the last time!

 

[RooFlyer]

Watch the server crash again like the last time!

Yep - but my census on paper will be just fine.

 

[serfty]

Yep - but my census on paper will be just fine.

Don't forget to have backup crayons at hand ...

 

[Lynda2475]

how do you correct for the bias introduced by, say, technology use/ability; literacy level; people mostly excluded from on-line stuff, such as the homeless and some minorities? Its not possible, of course. Even tax office and social security data - it all contains some sort of bias or self selection and in many cases, inconsistancy in collection methodoligy and/or aggregation . So, how do you use that data for planning purposes?

Your are misrepresenting what I said, taking it out of context. I never suggested we should be gathering data from social media to replace the census or inform social policy now.

I raised it in reference to your election to make your personal census data publicly searchable in the future in the main for ancestry research. I simply noted that in the future most people researching their family history will also have a wealth of other digital resources to compliment the very basic census data.

You may think peoples digital footprint is all lies, more lies and stupid cat videos and choose to have minimal one. However, that doesn't mean that the wealth of photographic history captured in social media accounts (more visual history than we have ever had before) wont hold value for others in the future.

I do stand by my statement that census data need to be used in conjunction with other data sources to be most useful. Augmenting Public Transport services for example based solely on census data will never be as successful as using that in conjunction with usage data, customer surveys and direct observation.

 

[I love to travel]

# More seriously than the use of cat photos on Facebook and Instagram, anyone who watched The West Wing might remember an alternative to Census - which is expensive, takes a long time to collate and analyse and has the flaws I mentioned above.

That's using sampling - instead of trying to poll every household/everybody, you carefully choose a representative sample of the population and derive the bigger picture from that.

The counter argument? OK - lets elect our Parliaments based on the NewsPoll in the Australian.

No more of a fan of census by sampling than I am of using Facebook for national planning.

That was a great episode!!