Ask The Pilot

[Saab34]

Gents in these sort of examples, is there generally enough time to conduct a missed approach before the second bounce/near tail strike?

 

[AviatorInsight]

Gents in these sort of examples, is there generally enough time to conduct a missed approach before the second bounce/near tail strike?

There’s always time to do a missed approach right up to the point where you select reverse thrust.

 

[tgh]

Having it on the deck in one piece was probably enough excitement for one day for the crew of the subject video..why come back for seconds ?
…and I know that is not what the op asked..

 

[cambriamarsh]

Gents in these sort of examples, is there generally enough time to conduct a missed approach before the second bounce/near tail strike?

I've had a few flights into WLG that felt like that but probably weren't quite that extreme. I just shut my eyes and trust the team up front are on their game. So far they have been.

 

[Saab34]

Can I ask what the bounce sensation feels like up front? Do you feel a rapid sink after the first touch like she is about to slam down? Or it all a bit unknown- ie wind etc is unpredictable, not sure what the aircraft will do.

Seems like flight crew have about a second to make the call to give the approach away. Decision making skills being tested to the max.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Can I ask what the bounce sensation feels like up front? Do you feel a rapid sink after the first touch like she is about to slam down? Or it all a bit unknown- ie wind etc is unpredictable, not sure what the aircraft will do.

Seems like flight crew have about a second to make the call to give the approach away. Decision making skills being tested to the max.

The sensation is more or less the same, but because it'll generally have a higher nose attitude than those sitting in the back (and therefore closer to the ground), we may not feel it as hard on touchdown.

Because of this sinking feeling, it's natural for pilots to pull back to arrest the sink. However, the risk of a tailstrike increases. At the same time, the speed would have slowed even further, exacerbating the situation, so pilots pull back more.

The bigger the bounce, the greater the risk of a strike. The smart thing to do is just give it away and try again, even if it means going through those conditions for a second time.

 

[jb747]

Gents in these sort of examples, is there generally enough time to conduct a missed approach before the second bounce/near tail strike?

In this video, there's about 3 seconds from the point at which it's nicely under control to the point that it's solidly on the ground with spoilers extended. Application of full power at the last instant before the wing drops, might have meant you didn't touch the ground, but from any point after that you'd have some degree of 'landing'. In a large aircraft, the engines can take multiple seconds to wind up, so whilst you could go around up until reverse is selected, you're going to be doing some sort of landing, whether you want to, or not.

It's hard to say for sure, but I think the 'bounce' is less bounce and more a result of the control inputs. The pitch attitude remains reasonably stable, and most of the proximity of the tail is caused by the gear compression. Basically he's as close as you'd want to get, but there's a few degrees left.

I've had a few flights into WLG that felt like that but probably weren't quite that extreme. I just shut my eyes and trust the team up front are on their game. So far they have been.

Wellington...the first sector of my command training on the 767 was to there (and it was my first visit). The power was idle-full-idle-full. And it was the only time I ever saw a 'load relief' message on the aircraft. Gusting 65 knots...what a joy.

Can I ask what the bounce sensation feels like up front? Do you feel a rapid sink after the first touch like she is about to slam down? Or it all a bit unknown- ie wind etc is unpredictable, not sure what the aircraft will do.

The response to any rapid sink is a handful of power. Power fixes many potholes.

 

[Quickstatus]

'load relief'

Too fast for Flap setting?

 

[jb747]

Too fast for Flap setting?

Sort of. It‘s not that you’ve been too fast when it was extended, but a gust has pushed you over the limit, so the flap automatically retracts to 25. It will then put itself back at 30 once the gust has passed. It only worked at F30 on the 767 and 747. The 380 could do it at a couple of settings.

 

[Quickstatus]

Thank you,

Which of the commercial jets had/has the most pitch up when power is applied

 

[jb747]

Which of the commercial jets had/has the most pitch up when power is applied

Of those that I've flown, easily the 767. 747 was pretty benign, and the 380 didn't at all (at least in normal law). Just popped note to a friend who flies the 717. I suspect it may have very little, and it could even be down.

 

[Quickstatus]

easily the 767

Ok thx.
So if not careful it can also be easier to stall?

 

[jb747]

So if not careful it can also be easier to stall?

I get the feeling that you're working up to something here.

There's no danger of stalling it in something like a go-around, unless you happen to simultaneously stop flying it. The pitch up is strong, but you still need to add some backstick to it to get the pitch rate required. And then you can easily hold it at the target attitude. It does require a fair bit of nose down trim to remove the load from your hands. I'd far rather the aircraft as it was, than having Boeing 'look after' us with MCAS.

I asked about the 717, and the response was that it has pretty much no pitch couple.

 

[Quickstatus]

I get the feeling that you're working up to something here.

No trap.
There was a recent general aviation stall and crash in the US after an attempted go around
Too much pitch up and flap retraction too early = stall
But perhaps that fits into your comment:

unless you happen to simultaneously stop flying it

.....

What are the aerodynamic differences in a high wing vs low wing in a take off or go around situation?

 

[jb747]

No trap.
There was a recent general aviation stall and crash in the US after an attempted go around
Too much pitch up and flap retraction too early = stall
But perhaps that fits into your comment:

The pitch up is totally controllable in any instance I can imagine in GA. So, that would sound more like my previous comment about "simultaneously stop flying it". Go-arounds just aren't a big deal. Or at least they shouldn't be. Once you've rotated to the target attitude, they're little different to a take off.

What are the aerodynamic differences in a high wing vs low wing in a take off or go around situation?

AV might be able to give a better answer than me. I don't think I've ever flown anything with a high wing. There's probably some lateral stability differences, but that doesn't affect a go around.

 

[Saab34]

Is there any rough age group in which Domestic Pilots retire? I’ve seen a few go on to 70, however I’d be interested to hear if the majority call it a day say 60-62 or 63-65 etc? Any common time?

 

[jb747]

Is there any rough age group in which Domestic Pilots retire? I’ve seen a few go on to 70, however I’d be interested to hear if the majority call it a day say 60-62 or 63-65 etc? Any common time?

It becomes progressively harder to pass the medicals and sims as you get older. Animal cunning will only get you so far. When I retired I was 63, and I gather that 62-63 covered the majority of QF retirements. Domestic ops don’t have the 65 age limit that applies to international, but it was mostly only those with five wives who felt the need to continue forever.

 

[JohnM]

It becomes progressively harder to pass the medicals and sims as you get older. Animal cunning will only get you so far. When I retired I was 63, and I gather that 62-63 covered the majority of QF retirements. Domestic ops don’t have the 65 age limit that applies to international, but it was mostly only those with five wives who felt the need to continue forever.

I won't show this to my retired-at-65 EK A380 Check Captain mate who had, following that for a couple of years up to Covid, a nice gig FIFOing PER-DXB to supervise sim sessions and whose wife - of not many years - went for the jugular when that came to a crashing halt...

 

[jb747]

I won't show this to my retired-at-65 EK A380 Check Captain mate who had, following that for a couple of years up to Covid, a nice gig FIFOing PER-DXB to supervise sim sessions and whose wife - of not many years - went for the jugular when that came to a crashing halt...

Pilots are smart at many things....but not everything.

 

[JohnM]

Pilots are smart at many things....but not everything.

I'm a scientist - same applies...