Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

These illusions are extremely strong, and they take a number of different forms. They will kill non instrument rated pilots in seconds - I think the average amount of time for a non rated pilot to lose control in cloud is something like 90 seconds.

 

[daft009]

Is a commercials fight allowed to take off if the water tanks are empty?

Just took a 2hr domestic fight (not in AU) and no water in the toilet sinks or to make tea coffee to serve during meal service.

Complained after going to the loo and was handed a small 200ml bottle of drinking water to wash hands.

 

[cambriamarsh]

These illusions are extremely strong, and they take a number of different forms. They will kill non instrument rated pilots in seconds - I think the average amount of time for a non rated pilot to lose control in cloud is something like 90 seconds.

Thanks for that, is this what may have caused the AF crash over the Atlantic?

 

[cambriamarsh]

Is a commercials fight allowed to take off if the water tanks are empty?

Just took a 2hr domestic fight (not in AU) and no water in the toilet sinks or to make tea coffee to serve during meal service.

Complained after going to the loo and was handed a small 200ml bottle of drinking water to wash hands.

Can you name the airline, seems like an odd thing for a commercial airline to do.

 

[daft009]

Air India.
booked them as they are *A and 25kg check in baggage was included.

a week later did a short (~3.5hr) international flight with them too and things weren't much better.

never again!

 

[jb747]

Is a commercials fight allowed to take off if the water tanks are empty?

Just took a 2hr domestic fight (not in AU) and no water in the toilet sinks or to make tea coffee to serve during meal service.

Well, the regulators are interested in safety, and I don't think water, or the lack thereof, would directly come under that remit, so I'm not sure who would actually be able to disallow it. From a commercial point of view it's a very silly thing to do. Are you actually sure there was no water actually loaded, as there are many things that can make loaded water inaccessible?

 

[jb747]

Thanks for that, is this what may have caused the AF crash over the Atlantic?

That particular event has most pilots just shaking their heads. If the bloke who made most of the inputs had had a completely false record, with no real flying, then I could understand it. That accident was the culmination of a sequence of control inputs that were so dumb as to stagger belief.

He certainly had no idea what he was doing, but no, not that illusion. It may have come into play in the FlyDubai crash.

 

[daft009]

Well, the regulators are interested in safety, and I don't think water, or the lack thereof, would directly come under that remit, so I'm not sure who would actually be able to disallow it. From a commercial point of view it's a very silly thing to do. Are you actually sure there was no water actually loaded, as there are many things that can make loaded water inaccessible?

the announcement was the tanks were empty and sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Quickstatus]

These illusions are extremely strong, and they take a number of different forms. They will kill non instrument rated pilots in seconds - I think the average amount of time for a non rated pilot to lose control in cloud is something like 90 seconds.

Do you get the same illusions in a simulator. I know that a simulator roller coaster can simulate G effects when tied in with a iMax type video screen

 

[jb747]

Do you get the same illusions in a simulator. I know that a simulator roller coaster can simulate G effects when tied in with a iMax type video screen

Not really. I certainly can't remember any. The "leans" would be the most likely, but that's pretty harmless. The pitch up acceleration illusion just couldn't happen....the simulator acceleration is only simulated after all, so it won't affect the inner ear the same way.

 

[Quickstatus]

Thanks for that, is this what may have caused the AF crash over the Atlantic?

Not really. I certainly can't remember any. The "leans" would be the most likely, but that's pretty harmless. The pitch up acceleration illusion just couldn't happen....the simulator acceleration is only simulated after all, so it won't affect the inner ear the same way.

Maybe the JFK Jr crash in 1999 would have been explained by this.
Does it take much willpower to overcome these illusion and would this be an impediment for some to not achieve instrument rating?

 

[jb747]

Maybe the JFK Jr crash in 1999 would have been explained by this.

JFK Jr? A reasonably high performance light aircraft, and a minimally experienced pilot. What else do you need? From wikipedia "Kennedy did not hold an instrument rating and was therefore only certified to fly under visual flight rules. However, at the time of the accident the weather and light conditions were such that all basic landmarks were obscured, making visual flight challenging, although legally still permissible."

Does it take much willpower to overcome these illusion and would this be an impediment for some to not achieve instrument rating?

For most people, you spend your entire life believing what you feel. In most cases, if you split what's being seen and being felt, you'll pretty much immediately disorient the person. Pilots have to learn to split the two. To be honest, I haven't felt any of the illusions in many years (last I recall was the leans in a Macchi). I expect that it simply becomes part of our persona.

If you can't overcome the illusions, then you should never get an instrument rating.

So, when initially training for rating, it's bashed into your head that whatever you feel is wrong, and the instruments are correct. Later they introduce instrument failures. What you feel is still totally wrong, but you'll need to derive the information you need from a subset of the instruments. A partial panel CGA in the Macchi was a particular delight....

 

[cambriamarsh]

That particular event has most pilots just shaking their heads. If the bloke who made most of the inputs had had a completely false record, with no real flying, then I could understand it. That accident was the culmination of a sequence of control inputs that were so dumb as to stagger belief.

He certainly had no idea what he was doing, but no, not that illusion. It may have come into play in the FlyDubai crash.

THanks JB

 

[AviatorInsight]

Do you get the same illusions in a simulator. I know that a simulator roller coaster can simulate G effects when tied in with a iMax type video screen

I agree with JB’s views above and while I don’t feel the same illusions in the simulator as I would in the aircraft, I hate it when I’m performing a manoeuvre and the checkie stops the sim suddenly. The visuals stop immediately and the sim continues to slowly return to its base position. This definitely plays with my sensations!

 

[flychrisfly]

Hi Pilots, what do these runway markings mean? Thanks

 

[jb747]

Hi Pilots, what do these runway markings mean?

Touchdown zone limit markings. Basically it means that if you aren't on the ground yet, then you'd better go around.

Reference here: https://www.caa.govt.nz/aerodromes/Aerodrome_Markings.pdf

 

[RooFlyer]

I agree with JB’s views above and while I don’t feel the same illusions in the simulator as I would in the aircraft, I hate it when I’m performing a manoeuvre and the checkie stops the sim suddenly. The visuals stop immediately and the sim continues to slowly return to its base position. This definitely plays with my sensations!

Do they do that often? Does that tend to re-inforce the feeling that "its just a sim..." or are things usually stopped during "normal flight" and not half way through a 'problem' situation?

 

[jb747]

Do they do that often? Does that tend to re-inforce the feeling that "its just a sim..." or are things usually stopped during "normal flight" and not half way through a 'problem' situation?

Mostly they try to avoid any sudden discontinuities. It does remind you that it's a sim, but it breaks the flow of whatever you were doing, and so makes errors more likely.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Do they do that often? Does that tend to re-inforce the feeling that "its just a sim..." or are things usually stopped during "normal flight" and not half way through a 'problem' situation?

Exactly as JB posted above. It does make you remember it’s a sim and it’ll usually be because either something has gone wrong with the sim itself, an instructor issue (like forgetting to give us the failure) or a student failure where a repeat would be required.

 

[jb747]

Roster time....

Leftover from the current roster...
02/12 QF93
03/12 QF94

09/12 QF93
10/12 QF94

And the new...

23/12 QF93
24/12 QF94

01/01 QF93
02/01 QF94

08/01 QF93
09/01 QF94

23/01 QF9 MEL-DXB
26/01 QF9 DXB-LHR
28/01 QF2 LHR-DXB
31/01 QF10 DXB-MEL