Article: Not All Economy Class Products Are the Same

[JohnK]

I always use DeathStar for a baseline of how bad an Economy seat can really be.

That is true in Australia.

I've put on quite a lot of weight since Covid and it was a couple of years since flying Thailand domestic. Thai AirAsia and Nok Air are awful. Scoot is OK. JQ is definitely OK and QF/VA more than acceptable for someone obese like me.

@Transair pitch might be important and might be measured differently from airline to airline. I struggle to understand how Thai AirAsia and Nok Air can quote measurements similar to JQ/QF/VA when in reality their seats are very tight. Not just leg room but width and depth they are awful.

I'm so stressed that I am at the point where I don't know how I will get between Pattaya and Chiang Mai as I'd like to spend time in both each trip. Unless I lose a lot of weight quickly I cannot go through what I went through on Nok Air just after New Years.

 

[dajop]

Yet their flights are usually full and profitable.

I don’t make a habit of flying JQ but I did do DPS-PER last year as part of a CR to SYD (PER-SYD on QF). I was surprised that it wasn’t awful. A morning day flight obviously better than o/n. Also paying a few bucks for a forward seat (but no additional leg room) did seem to help. Also selecting adjacent aisle seats as 2x PAX is better than “short straw middle seat”…

Don't forget this is AFF, we are a bunch of elitists who wouldn't be seen dead on Jetstar with the lowlife scum that flies them.

I actually flew JQ7 MEL-SIN yesterday. have done that several times over the last 18 months or so. TBH in economy it certainly didn't feel any worse than QF, some pros and cons on both. Admittedly I was on Max bundle, so had exit row + 2 meals. Some of the comparison to my previous flight on QF 35 MEL-SIN in November:
- Punctuality. JQ7 slightly early, QF35 was on time ( but we arrived in SIN about 20 hrs late, as we booked on QF37 the day before which was cancelled).
- IFE: QF free, JQ is about $11. Content reasonable on both. JQ operational for whole flight, with seat back (or in seat for exit row) screens, QF had ipads that weren't operational until 90 mins into the flight, and had to be stowed for landing.
- Food - QF free, but quality similar on both.
- Beverages service - QF free, JQ paid. JQ staff regularly went through the cabin with bottled water and plastic cups. QF staff were absent other than meal times.
- Amenities - QF toilets were disgusting by end of flight and ran out of toilet paper. JQ flights seemed to be cleaned occassionally and kept well stocked with toilet paper.

With one way on QF about $550 (or more) and one way on Jetstar Max Bundle $375, I' was happy - and had an exit row and accrued a few more QF points in the process, than I would have on QF {edit: oh, also I delayed my departure by 3 days, I could do so free of charge on JQ on QF it would have cost me $125 or $225 change fee!)

 

[dajop]

A great one not mentioned yet is KLM's "Economy Comfort".

Similar to Etihad's "Economy Plus", it's not Premium Economy, just normal Economy with a lot more legroom. 10cm more, which if you're 6'3" like me makes the world of difference.

At the budget end of the spectrum, Scoot 787-9's (that serve MEL & SYD) have "Super" seats that have about 3-4" more legroom than their standard seats, and are more comfortable, although obviously it is a very budget service (with no IFE).

 

[Forg]

Don't forget this is AFF, we are a bunch of elitists who wouldn't be seen dead on Jetstar with the lowlife scum that flies them.

I actually flew JQ7 MEL-SIN yesterday. have done that several times over the last 18 months or so. TBH in economy it certainly didn't feel any worse than QF, some pros and cons on both.

Not super long after JQ got their shiny new Dreamliners, my wife & I went to Tassie (from Sydney) and ‘cos at the time she had QF F lounge access I found a JQ fare transiting in MEL but starting from SYD in the international terminal (and after MEL the 787 went off to SE Asia somewhere).

QF has good IFE content compared to a solid chunk of airlines ‘round the world (or they did then at least), but apart from that I saw nothing any worse about the JQ 787 Y seating than the QF A332 or A333 Y seating.
Don’t get me wrong, they both suck, but one didn’t suck any harder than the other.

Flying domestically in Oz in Y doesn’t bother me (ok maybe WA is a stretch) but seat space seems aircraft rather than airline dependent. Doubt Rex have changed that? IIRC (and I may have this the wrong way ‘round) an A32x will have slightly more seat width than a 738 but will also slice slightly deeper holes in your knees. The LH A32x about a decade ago, and the BA one now I think about it, had I suspect identical seats to a JQ one. Oh and the EasyJet 738 in 2018 was the same in terms of space as a Virgin or Qantas one; again I suspect the same seats with the same pitch.

 

[Charlie B]

I just flew back with Singapore Airlines from India via SIN to PER and then onto ADL in economy with Qantas. There was without doubt more room on the QF Embraer 190 between PER-ADL then there was on either the A350 or the 787 especially regarding the width of the seat. I am not a wide man, but the SQ seats are ridiculously narrow. As far as I am concerned, unless you are up the front, these new aircraft are a step backwards in economy. You are better off in an A380, A330 or seemingly even an E190 !

 

[zan5hin]

Very nicely written article, which I'm sure I will refer to multiple times over the next few years.

I did a RTW in Business using 280k KF last year which spoilt me but this year I'm putting together a RTW with a mish-mash of paid economy and reward Premium/Biz. Most of my travel in the last 15 years has been in economy, and mostly LCCs between MEL and Asia.

My first sector for 2024 is MEL-xCAN-FCO which I found in July for $605 in economy one-way. Flying halfway around the world for that price, on the day I wanted was nice.

Never flown China Southern before, but apparently this is 787-9 Dreamliner with 32" pitch, 9 abreast. More research shows this is 16.3-17.3" in width (why the variance! how can I choose?!).
Unfortunately it would be 2x $169 if I want to upgrade to the exit/bulkhead which is a bit much. At least I have 6 hours to stretch my legs halfway. Haven't flown this long in economy in one day since I took a Qantas A380 from JFK-xLAX-MEL about 15 years ago.

I've flown enough time on LCC like AirAsia, Cebu, Scoot that I simply cannot fly with them unless I book an exit row so I just calculate that into the price. But then again, with the tray table in the armrest, you are sacrificing width for length, so you cannot really win. A few times I've had a nightmare bulkhead door blocking my legroom and another memorable time in AirAsia, the passengers would keep walking across my legs to use the bathroom on the other side. Never book a bulkhead seat in the middle on a LCC!

You touched on width in the article, but I found an article that goes into even more interesting detail: Those confusing aircraft seat measurements, explained - Runway Girl

I definitely feel there is a lack of detailed info on width. From the article
“We have standards for pitch, but width is the new pitch and it’s the Wild West out there right now,”

I feel that the worst part of flying economy is the skin to skin, shoulder to shoulder contact with other passengers. That article also say that 17" shoulders "is an extra small according to clothier Brooks Brothers’ sizing chart. To be blunt, how many people wear an extra small?"

So even paying $169 per segment for extra legroom won't really solve my main problem.

I found a chart on longhaul economy seat width here: Long-haul Economy Class Comparison Charti - SeatGuru

This explains a lot, Asian LCCs are 16.5" - no wonder I hate their seats but love their prices. I'm so used to flying to Asia in them now.... but going to Europe is going to be a struggle. In 2025 I'll be on another Star Alliance RTW, thank god!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Very nicely written article, which I'm sure I will refer to multiple times over the next few years.

I did a RTW in Business using 280k KF last year which spoilt me but this year I'm putting together a RTW with a mish-mash of paid economy and reward Premium/Biz. Most of my travel in the last 15 years has been in economy, and mostly LCCs between MEL and Asia.

My first sector for 2024 is MEL-xCAN-FCO which I found in July for $605 in economy one-way. Flying halfway around the world for that price, on the day I wanted was nice.

Never flown China Southern before, but apparently this is 787-9 Dreamliner with 32" pitch, 9 abreast. More research shows this is 16.3-17.3" in width (why the variance! how can I choose?!).
Unfortunately it would be 2x $169 if I want to upgrade to the exit/bulkhead which is a bit much. At least I have 6 hours to stretch my legs halfway. Haven't flown this long in economy in one day since I took a Qantas A380 from JFK-xLAX-MEL about 15 years ago.

I've flown enough time on LCC like AirAsia, Cebu, Scoot that I simply cannot fly with them unless I book an exit row so I just calculate that into the price. But then again, with the tray table in the armrest, you are sacrificing width for length, so you cannot really win. A few times I've had a nightmare bulkhead door blocking my legroom and another memorable time in AirAsia, the passengers would keep walking across my legs to use the bathroom on the other side. Never book a bulkhead seat in the middle on a LCC!

You touched on width in the article, but I found an article that goes into even more interesting detail: Those confusing aircraft seat measurements, explained - Runway Girl

I definitely feel there is a lack of detailed info on width. From the article
“We have standards for pitch, but width is the new pitch and it’s the Wild West out there right now,”

I feel that the worst part of flying economy is the skin to skin, shoulder to shoulder contact with other passengers. That article also say that 17" shoulders "is an extra small according to clothier Brooks Brothers’ sizing chart. To be blunt, how many people wear an extra small?"

So even paying $169 per segment for extra legroom won't really solve my main problem.

I found a chart on longhaul economy seat width here: Long-haul Economy Class Comparison Charti - SeatGuru

This explains a lot, Asian LCCs are 16.5" - no wonder I hate their seats but love their prices. I'm so used to flying to Asia in them now.... but going to Europe is going to be a struggle. In 2025 I'll be on another Star Alliance RTW, thank god!

Variances in seat width can come down to:

• the position of the seat… in some rows where the fuselage tapers, seats can be lightly narrower, so there’ll be a range of seat widths listed for some airlines
• whether or not the seat may be slightly narrower at a bulkhead, where armrests are fixed
• how the airline measures the width… including or excluding the armrest
• the make and brand of the seat… some are wider than others! This gives the potential for slightly wider ailes if the airline chooses.

In general, airbus have slightly wider cabins, so seats are wider (737 v a320, or 777 v A350 or a380, 787 v a330).

At the extreme is the a330 which can take a 9 abreast configuration, but thankfully that’s quite rare outside a few low cost airlines.

Even seat pitch can sometimes vary within the standard economy cabin (non ‘extra legroom’ seats). For example Finnair’s a321 has a number of rows behind the third exit, only on the left side, that are 32 inch pitch instead of 31 inches. A good seating chart website can help uncover those hacks!

 

[Mekanikel]

Choosing a bulkhead seat or exit row seat, usually at an extra cost is a great way to go, but for me it's a trade off against getting a seat that has an armrest you can lift up against those hard armrests that narrow the seat because of the tray table and IFE. Movable armrests let you enjoy that extra wideness, squirming a bit on angle to get some legroom too. I usually ask for extra pillows if the airline has them to stuff behind to make the angle more comfortable. The ability to check the seat map for availability of empty seats next to or near helps the decision. I'm PS, so usually during seat selection seats can be greyed out, but partner is SG and seat selection map shows more empty seats than just the usual 'X'

 

[zan5hin]

Just have to pop back in because I'm also looking at a holiday in May, and found a Cebu Pacific flight direct MEL-MNL for only $199, which is incredible. They only make like $33 before govt taxes and surcharges. The reason is that they fly this A330-900 which fits as many seats as an A380 does!

I have not yet enjoyed the pleasure of 9 hours in a "pre-reclined" seat with 28" (some say 30") seat pitch and a 16.8" width. This must be a new record for cattle class.... you can pay a bit extra for legroom but lose another half an inch width for the tray table.... then be squashed between the side of the aircraft and a guy with Type 2 diabetes....

This bloke describes it better than me:

Lucky for me, the fare timed out and went up $120 so I don't need to contemplate this anymore.
With extra legroom being $95, it was gonna be better for me to book a spare seat at the back and have a whole mini-row to myself.... 28-30" seat pitch and 33.6" width for $400 sounds like a deal!

 

[tdimdad]

With extra legroom being $95, it was gonna be better for me to book a spare seat at the back and have a whole mini-row to myself.... 28-30" seat pitch and 33.6" width for $400 sounds like a deal!

Have you done this before? How does it work?
If you booked two pax on a single ticket, did online check-in but presented only one person at the gate, would the second person be marked as a no-show? Would this lead the neighbouring seat to be returned back to the pool of available seats (in case anyone needs to be reseated or there are stand-by pax in queue)?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Have you done this before? How does it work?
If you booked two pax on a single ticket, did online check-in but presented only one person at the gate, would the second person be marked as a no-show? Would this lead the neighbouring seat to be returned back to the pool of available seats (in case anyone needs to be reseated or there are stand-by pax in queue)?

You would need to buy any additional seat through a recognised process, if that’s even available through Cebu?

Purchasing a seat for another passenger, or even in the same name as the original passenger, is likely to fail once check-in closes or boarding finalises and the spare seat is marked as a no-show.

 

[dk4]

Unsurprisingly, there are so many different types of economy class seats, from a variety of manufacturers...

Recaro lists 5 different models as economy class - Economy Class - RECARO Aircraft Seating
Safran also markets 5 different seats to fit an economy class cabin (scroll to the end of linked page) - Products & services

And that is just a sample of only 10 different economy seats, from merely 2 manufacturers!

 

[zan5hin]

You would need to buy any additional seat through a recognised process, if that’s even available through Cebu?

Cebu has a FAQ page: Booking a Flight

Our seats range from 16.7 inches to 17.3 inches. Guests of size or guests who need space for their standard-sized hand carry bag are requested to book two (2) seats for a more comfortable flight.

Although in saying that, I guess you would have to pay for the seat selector option as well, to guarantee the row at the back with two seats.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Cebu has a FAQ page: Booking a Flight

Our seats range from 16.7 inches to 17.3 inches. Guests of size or guests who need space for their standard-sized hand carry bag are requested to book two (2) seats for a more comfortable flight.

Although in saying that, I guess you would have to pay for the seat selector option as well, to guarantee the row at the back with two seats.

That’s handy to know! I spent a good 15 minutes on the Cebu site earlier today… searched ‘extra seat’, ‘comfort seat’, ‘passenger of size’, ‘additional seat’!! Anyway, you managed to track it down.

I wonder what the booking process is? Seems like you can just do it on line?

 

[bpcmemorial]

At the budget end of the spectrum, Scoot 787-9's (that serve MEL & SYD) have "Super" seats that have about 3-4" more legroom than their standard seats, and are more comfortable, although obviously it is a very budget service (with no IFE).

that's really handy thanks, I've never even considered Scoot before because of the legroom. IFE doesn't bother me much either way, half the time I'm doing work (on a laptop, which you can't do in a cramped seat) and air travel is one of the chances I get to actually read a real book

 

[Forg]

^ 3”-4” more spacing might be enough to allow you to continue reading when the Recliner in front reclines.

 

[zan5hin]

I was just doing more research and found a plugin from Chrome called "Legroom for Google Flights". This shows you seat pitch without having to press the drop-down arrow for each individual flight!

It does interfere with my "Tile tabs" mode when viewing two tabs side by side in Vivaldi. I might message the developer. Maybe ask to also hide the CO2 emissions column completely

 

[AVV]

Not All Economy Class Products Are the Same is an article written by the AFF editorial team:

https://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/economy-class-differentiation/

You can leave a comment or discuss this topic below.

I like the two seats on 787-9 but only last row at rear. I enjoy JQ or TG. I am a. QFFF. As such I am always disappointed with QF. Yes SQ are the best. Never changed logos or uniforms. Also JL if going their way. I recently flew QF using points to HKG+little cash. I note the return wanted $666 plus points. Any way flew to SIN for a stop and onto MEL with Scoot. Service was better , choice of meals ( extra) Inc 10kg cabin allowance. Yes the checked bags were dearer than JQ. But the such low fares and great in flt service could not be faulted, except for ridiculous thin wooden cutlery. It seems only economy class are a danger,.Going to HKT next month and using JQ as better times but much more expensive than TG. Later travelling back from Macau to SIN then to Mel .Going Scoot , also get Kris miles. Agree with everything you say. I call QF economy a budget carrier, plus few destinations compared to JQ and TG.