Another USA Visa - ESTA question

[Linds1982]

Hello everyone

This is my first post on the Australian Frequent Flyer website, hopefully I am posting this visa question in the correct category.

I have spent the past 5 days searching the web trying to obtain a clear understanding of crimes involving moral turpitude. There seems to be a lot of confusion and grey areas relating to past crimes and applying for the online electronic visa.

I am traveling to USA in less then 10 days with my boyfriend, we are meeting up with my parents who are holidaying there, we will only be staying for 7 nights, port of entry is LAX. I applied for our electronic visas a few weeks ago, my boyfriend has since told me about a prior conviction he has. 6 yrs ago he was walking away from a pub after a fight broke out out the front, he was rather drunk and stupidly decided to throw one of those orange bollards (used for road work? or something like that) over his shoulder and unluckily it went through the rear window of a car, the police caught him and he was charged with damaging property, pleaded guilty, did not go to court and paid for the damages.

Is this a crime involving moral turpitude? I don't think it is malicious damage of property as he threw it over his shoulder, didn't throw it directly at the car? This moral turpitude is very confusing, now I am extremely stressed out that he will be turned back upon arrival into LA. I have read stories that applying for a visa at the consulate can take up to 8 weeks? Not an option. I havent had the guts to tell my parents as yet, we will be absolutely gutted if he is refused entry.

What I would like to know is what happens when you pass through the immigration agent, we have fingerprints and photo taken and will his crime show up on the computer screen from his fingerprint scan? Has anyone argued (not really argued as I know you do not argue with the immigration!) that they believe their crime does not come under the definition of moral turpitude?

Thanks for any advice

 

[Cynicor]

I think, without any evidence, that this will come under moral turpitude. Others will chime in with actual links soon, I'm sure.

With only 10 days to go I think you only have 2 options:
1. Cancel the trip and try again another day, applying for a visa etc.
2. Apply for an ESTA online, say no to the relevant questions and hope nothing happens in the LOTFAP. If choosing this option, make sure you can afford a full price one way fare back home, as I presume if you get declined you will be hit up for the cost of a fare.

I would never recommend the second option, but if you have only 10 days to go you have very little choice (as far as I can see).

 

[harvyk]

You are probably ok, as far as I know if the intent to damage property was not there then it doesn't really count as a crime of moral turpitude.
Moral turpitude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the conviction was simply unlawful but unintentional damage, or something along those lines, then you will be ok. If the conviction was damage with intent, or something along the lines of your BF intentionally damaging property, then you have a problem.

My suggestion is to look up exactly what is recorded in the judgement against your BF, and make an educated guess from that. If you are satisfied that the crime doesn't fit moral turpitude laws then you should be ok. Obviously don't volunteer the information at LAX unless asked, but if you are asked be upfront and honest.

 

[Linds1982]

Thanks for your reply
unfortunately canceling the trip and
rebooking isn't an option

I guess there is nothing I can do

:-(

 

[Linds1982]

Thanks harvyk, the wikepedia site is the one I was looking at when trying to figure out if it was classed as moral turpitude.
Does the USA and Australia share criminal data via fingerprint scans? Or is it only serious crimes which would show up?

He has a clean record besides this minor charge, he works on a minesite and has an explosives usage licence which to obtain he had to have numerous police/security checks, I know this has nothing to do with entering USA though.

I wont be able to relax the whole trip over, and I know I will have to try my best to not look stressed/anxious or it will draw attention to us

 

[Linds1982]

What is LOTFAP? I had a quick look on google and couldnt get a clear understanding of the term?

 

[serfty]

What is LOTFAP? I had a quick look on google and couldnt get a clear understanding of the term?

See here: http://www.australianfrequentflyer....viations-and-explanations-5056.html#post69096

 

[harvyk]

I at this point going to put in a disclaimer stating that I am not responsible if you get turned back at LAX... etc etc...

For the most part I expect very little criminal history data is shared between countries, that said, answer the question truthfully based on your own interpretation of moral turpitude, and once you have made your determination, relax... That said I always hate going through Customs lines, I'm always nervous that there is something that I've forgotten about, or my visa isn't right or some other thing, so I guess those nerves show through for me, that said I've never been denied entry (and even though I have done it many times, I still get nervous each time). So I expect they are used to seeing slightly nervous pax.

As for the fingerprint scans, I've always thought that this was big brother monitoring rather than any real positive ID, esp as I don't remember getting fingerprinted when I got my passport, so they can't really prove that it really is me based on that alone (at least not the first time).

 

[Linds1982]

Thanks again, I understand no one will be able to give me a yes or no answer so will not hold you responsible!!

So even though we have chosen "no" to the question on the visa regarding not being involved in a crime of moral turpitude is it likely that is one of the questions customs may ask? therefore if he is asked if he has ever committed a crime he will have to reply with yes and be taken away for secondary questioning, after googling the secondary questioning process it sounds daunting and scary.

I am always nervous going through customs and immigration even though I have never done anything wrong and have travelled alot in the past (33 times to Bali)
We have approx 4hrs wait in LAX airport before catching a domestic flight, hopefully this is enough time for the secondary questioning process if this is what happens. I am mainly worried about the fingerprint scanning

 

[harvyk]

If the answer to the moral turpitude question is no, then that is the answer you give on the form and if asked the question verbally. That said the worst thing you could do is lie on the form and then change your answer, so ultimately do not lie as that is the sort of thing which will get you in the little room.
Remember that it's a legal document which you are signing, so it's unlikely that you would be asked the question again as you have already answered it.

The most likely things you will be asked is what is your purpose of your visit and do you have anything to declare. The customs officer will then look at their computer screen, then at a random point in time asked you to look at the camera, then place your hand on the green pad, then wave you through.

 

[dfcatch]

They will also ask "how long do you intend to stay".

The questioning really is quite simple.

As has been said - you don't want to be changing your answers (from the ESTA application - to any other questions), as that in itself (lying on the ESTA) is cause for non-admittance.

So - if you are comfortable with your ESTA answers, stick with them.

If you are not comfortable with your ESTA answers - then the Visa process is the path you must take.

Only you can make that judgement and decide what action to take.

In any event - I would relax and try not to get too worked up. You seem very worked up and I would try not to be (if it was me).

PS. Was he actually convicted? Or just sent for "Diversion" or similar?

-------------
Disclaimer: this is not official advice and you are responsible for your own actions / decisions / statements.

 

[Linds1982]

We will only be in USA for 7 nights, no chance of overstaying the visa as we both have permanent jobs, mortgage, return ticket and itinerary outlining our plans for our 7 night trip

I do feel very worked up, it's the not knowing what might happen which is killing me
and the thought of him being sent straight back to OZ

He pleaded guilty, did not attend court and paid $600 in damages....is that a conviction?

 

[dfcatch]

We will only be in USA for 7 nights, no chance of overstaying the visa as we both have permanent jobs, mortgage, return ticket and itinerary outlining our plans for our 7 night trip

I do feel very worked up, it's the not knowing what might happen which is killing me
and the thought of him being sent straight back to OZ

He pleaded guilty, did not attend court and paid $600 in damages....is that a conviction?

It doesn't sound like it to me.... He would know.

But IIRC the question asked about arrests - not necessarily convictions. (the latter may influence the "search ability" of the charge).

 

[harvyk]

Just re-reading your original post, if he didn't go to court, I don't think it can count as a conviction. (I believe only a court can convict). I guess the next question, what was his actual arrest for? Public damage or drunk and disorderly in other words was he charged with anything, or simply just spending the night in the drunk tank? (Get the exact wording of the arrest record). Of course the other choice to put your mind at ease, go to the police station and ask for a police report which lists out any arrests. I believe you can even ask for one to do with visa's. That will be what the US will have access to, in the event they do any sort of follow up.