Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

Time between Engine 1 fuel switch to run and end of Data recording was 19seconds. Given that FADEC managed to relight the engine and N2 was < idle at the start of the relight sequence. how much time would it take to achieve enough thrust to at least maintain level flight?
From reaching a stable idle, probably about 10 seconds. But the aircraft would be deeply on the wrong side of the angle of attack by that point (too slow), so one engine may not have had enough power.
What was the outcome of any investigation (if any) of the QF pilot who took a Cessna out over the ocean near Lismore but never returned?
The obvious one, I think.
 
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That's why I'm interested to find out exactly where the FDR gets its information from about the position of the fuel control switches - are there contacts in the switches - or is the information derived from whether a wire downstream of the switches is receiving energy or not?
I'm sure that will come out eventually, but it's a really good question.
 
Bumped into the FO mid flight.
Was tempted to ask him if he had kept an eye on the switches on the take off roll. But thought it might come across as facetious, so I left him to get on with his ablutions.
 
I'm sure that will come out eventually, but it's a really good question.
Earlier aircraft had contact sensors on these sorts of switches, but technology has come a long way and now they would likely be Reed switches or possibly even Hall effect switches as these can output a digital signal. Given that when these fuel control switches are moved to the run position the FADEC uses this information to commence the ignition/start up sequence of each engine it is quite possible that a Hall effect switch sensor could be what is fitted - or there is no sensor on the actual switches and instead down stream of the switch there is a sensor or takeoff that basically says "I'm getting power now - so therefore the switch has been moved from cutoff to run"

@AviatorInsight - if you happen to be talking to any LAME's who are really clued up on the electricals it would be good to ask them which method is used to detect that the switch has been moved?
 
My current guess is that once the hand is on the switch it’ll take between 1-1.5seconds to make the selection. I’ve noticed that when shutting down it’s a lot quicker than when going from cutoff to run. But 4 seconds to move that switch is also way too long.
What if the switch was in Run and you had to move it to Cutoff in order to put it back in Run to start the relight sequence?
 
What if the switch was in Run and you had to move it to Cutoff in order to put it back in Run to start the relight sequence?
A single switch will definitely be quicker than that. Maybe if the time was both of them then that would make more sense.

In a dual engine flameout I’m using both hands to get those engines started. So simultaneously moving both fuel control switches from run to cutoff and back to run to start the relight sequence. I’ll try and time it on my next duty*.

*on the ground during preflight, before any engines are started and no power to the aircraft.
 
Gemini 2.5 Pro:


"The engineering of the fuel cutoff switches on the Boeing 787, like on all modern commercial aircraft, is centered on a philosophy of deliberate action, robust fail-safes, and clear, unambiguous feedback to the crew. The system is designed to prevent the exact kind of dual-fault scenario you previously described, ensuring that an engine is only shut down when a pilot explicitly and intentionally commands it.
Here’s a breakdown of the key engineering principles involved.
Physical and Ergonomic Design
The primary defense against error is the physical design and location of the switches.
* Guarded Switches: The fuel control switches are not simple toggles. They are physically protected by a guard mechanism. To move a switch from the "RUN" to the "CUTOFF" position, a pilot must first lift up on the switch itself to clear a physical locking gate. This two-step action (lift, then move) makes it virtually impossible to bump or accidentally move the switch.
* Deliberate Placement: The switches are located on the center console aft of the thrust levers. This placement is intentional—it's accessible but not in a position where it could be confused with a more frequently used control, like the landing gear or flap levers.
* Tactile Feedback: The switch has a distinct, physical feel. The spring-loading and the detent for the "RUN" and "CUTOFF" positions provide clear tactile confirmation that the command has been made and accepted.
Electrical and Logic Engineering
This is where the system prevents the "impossible state" of being both ON and OFF. It's built on layers of separation and redundancy.
* Separation and Independence: Each engine's fuel cutoff system (the switch, wiring, and the fuel spar valve it controls) is electrically and physically separate from the other. A single electrical fault, like a short or power surge on one circuit, is engineered not to affect the other. This principle of segregation is fundamental to aircraft safety.
* Direct Control, Not Just Digital: While the switch position is monitored digitally and displayed on the Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System (EICAS), the switch itself is not just a simple digital input to a central computer. It directly commands a fuel spar valve for each engine. Moving the switch to "CUTOFF" sends a direct signal to close this valve, physically stopping fuel flow.
* No Ambiguity in Logic: The system logic is binary and absolute. The switch is either in the "RUN" position, allowing the valve to be open, or it's in the "CUTOFF" position, commanding the valve to close. There is no intermediate or undefined state. If the sensor monitoring the valve's position disagrees with the commanded state (e.g., switch is "CUTOFF" but valve remains open), it triggers a specific EICAS alert (like FUEL SPAR VALVE OPEN), not an impossible "RUN/CUTOFF" message.
* FADEC Integration: The switch's command is interpreted by the Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The FADEC is a redundant computer system (with two independent channels, A and B, for each engine) that manages all aspects of engine operation. When the fuel control switch is moved to "CUTOFF," the FADEC executes a clean shutdown sequence. If the switch is moved back to "RUN" in flight, the FADEC will automatically manage the engine relight sequence.
Interaction with Engine Fire Handles
It's crucial to distinguish the fuel control switches from the engine fire handles. While both cut fuel, the fire handles initiate a more comprehensive shutdown for emergencies.
* Single Point of Action: In an engine fire, the illuminated fire handle becomes the primary control. Pulling the fire handle for a specific engine does several things at once:
* Closes the fuel spar valve (same as the cutoff switch).
* Closes the hydraulic fluid shutoff valve.
* Closes the engine bleed air valve.
* Trips the engine's generator off the electrical bus.
* Arms the fire extinguisher bottles for that engine.
This consolidates critical actions into one deliberate motion, ensuring a rapid and complete isolation of the affected engine from the aircraft's systems.
Summary
The engineering of the 787's fuel cutoff switches prevents ambiguous states through a multi-layered defense:
* Physical Guards: Requiring a deliberate, two-step physical action prevents accidental movement.
* Electrical Segregation: Independent circuits for each engine prevent a single fault from affecting both.
* Direct Command Logic: The switch directly commands a physical valve, with sensors that report discrepancies as specific faults, not impossible states.
* Redundant Control Systems: The FADEC provides a robust, fault-tolerant system for interpreting the command and managing the engine.
In short, the system is designed so that a dual electrical fault cannot create a "RUN" and "CUTOFF" signal for the same engine. Instead, it would likely result in a specific fault message indicating a disagreement between the commanded position and the actual valve state, allowing the crew to troubleshoot effectively."
 
A single switch will definitely be quicker than that. Maybe if the time was both of them then that would make more sense.

In a dual engine flameout I’m using both hands to get those engines started. So simultaneously moving both fuel control switches from run to cutoff and back to run to start the relight sequence. I’ll try and time it on my next duty*.

*on the ground during preflight, before any engines are started and no power to the aircraft.
Many thanks @AviatorInsight - it will be interesting to hear what you report back. Would be interesting to hear too how easy it is to do both when seated in your normal position with the belts on - I suspect that you will have to rotate your shoulders to the point where your right shoulder is actually past your left shoulder in order to get your right hand on to one of the switches.
 
Gemini 2.5 Pro:


"The engineering of the fuel cutoff switches on the Boeing 787, like on all modern commercial aircraft, is centered on a philosophy of deliberate action, robust fail-safes, and clear, unambiguous feedback to the crew. The system is designed to prevent the exact kind of dual-fault scenario you previously described, ensuring that an engine is only shut down when a pilot explicitly and intentionally commands it.
Here’s a breakdown of the key engineering principles involved.
Physical and Ergonomic Design
The primary defense against error is the physical design and location of the switches.

* Guarded Switches: The fuel control switches are not simple toggles. They are physically protected by a guard mechanism. To move a switch from the "RUN" to the "CUTOFF" position, a pilot must first lift up on the switch itself to clear a physical locking gate. This two-step action (lift, then move) makes it virtually impossible to bump or accidentally move the switch.
* Deliberate Placement: The switches are located on the center console aft of the thrust levers. This placement is intentional—it's accessible but not in a position where it could be confused with a more frequently used control, like the landing gear or flap levers.
* Tactile Feedback: The switch has a distinct, physical feel. The spring-loading and the detent for the "RUN" and "CUTOFF" positions provide clear tactile confirmation that the command has been made and accepted.
Electrical and Logic Engineering
This is where the system prevents the "impossible state" of being both ON and OFF. It's built on layers of separation and redundancy.

* Separation and Independence: Each engine's fuel cutoff system (the switch, wiring, and the fuel spar valve it controls) is electrically and physically separate from the other. A single electrical fault, like a short or power surge on one circuit, is engineered not to affect the other. This principle of segregation is fundamental to aircraft safety.
* Direct Control, Not Just Digital: While the switch position is monitored digitally and displayed on the Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System (EICAS), the switch itself is not just a simple digital input to a central computer. It directly commands a fuel spar valve for each engine. Moving the switch to "CUTOFF" sends a direct signal to close this valve, physically stopping fuel flow.
* No Ambiguity in Logic: The system logic is binary and absolute. The switch is either in the "RUN" position, allowing the valve to be open, or it's in the "CUTOFF" position, commanding the valve to close. There is no intermediate or undefined state. If the sensor monitoring the valve's position disagrees with the commanded state (e.g., switch is "CUTOFF" but valve remains open), it triggers a specific EICAS alert (like FUEL SPAR VALVE OPEN), not an impossible "RUN/CUTOFF" message.
* FADEC Integration: The switch's command is interpreted by the Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The FADEC is a redundant computer system (with two independent channels, A and B, for each engine) that manages all aspects of engine operation. When the fuel control switch is moved to "CUTOFF," the FADEC executes a clean shutdown sequence. If the switch is moved back to "RUN" in flight, the FADEC will automatically manage the engine relight sequence.
Interaction with Engine Fire Handles
It's crucial to distinguish the fuel control switches from the engine fire handles. While both cut fuel, the fire handles initiate a more comprehensive shutdown for emergencies.

* Single Point of Action: In an engine fire, the illuminated fire handle becomes the primary control. Pulling the fire handle for a specific engine does several things at once:
* Closes the fuel spar valve (same as the cutoff switch).
* Closes the hydraulic fluid shutoff valve.
* Closes the engine bleed air valve.
* Trips the engine's generator off the electrical bus.
* Arms the fire extinguisher bottles for that engine.
This consolidates critical actions into one deliberate motion, ensuring a rapid and complete isolation of the affected engine from the aircraft's systems.
Summary
The engineering of the 787's fuel cutoff switches prevents ambiguous states through a multi-layered defense:

* Physical Guards: Requiring a deliberate, two-step physical action prevents accidental movement.
* Electrical Segregation: Independent circuits for each engine prevent a single fault from affecting both.
* Direct Command Logic: The switch directly commands a physical valve, with sensors that report discrepancies as specific faults, not impossible states.
* Redundant Control Systems: The FADEC provides a robust, fault-tolerant system for interpreting the command and managing the engine.
In short, the system is designed so that a dual electrical fault cannot create a "RUN" and "CUTOFF" signal for the same engine. Instead, it would likely result in a specific fault message indicating a disagreement between the commanded position and the actual valve state, allowing the crew to troubleshoot effectively."
In essence the switch is a big toggle switch with a few extra bits in the design to prevent you accidentally moving it - basically it has a metal "hurdle" that you have to lift the switch up and over, but some 787's are known to have been delivered without the hurdle part installed in the switch - how that got through both QC and flight testing of a number of aircraft without anyone detecting it is a Boeing mystery...

Theory and good safety engineering would mean that it is designed in such a way that it is impossible to leave the switch in an intermediate/unrecognised position sitting on top of the hurdle. Where and how the position of the switches is detected and determined is still a bit of an unknown at the moment.
 
So FO calls for gear up.
Captain for whatever reason, pulls the switches. That’s likely another human factors discussion in itself.
FO asked why.
Said he didn’t.
Captain glances down to check and notices switches off. Startle sets in.
Moves one switch then checks screen, looking now a growing list of warnings. Hence the delay before moving the next switch. Startle well and truly set in.
Moves the next switch
Refers back to screens, what is going on, makes mayday call
Takes control for attempted forced landing.

Thoughts?
 
So FO calls for gear up.
Captain for whatever reason, pulls the switches. That’s likely another human factors discussion in itself.
FO asked why.
Said he didn’t.
Captain glances down to check and notices switches off. Startle sets in.
Moves one switch then checks screen, looking now a growing list of warnings. Hence the delay before moving the next switch. Startle well and truly set in.
Moves the next switch
Refers back to screens, what is going on, makes mayday call
Takes control for attempted forced landing.

Thoughts?
💤 Bedtime for me I’m afraid.
 

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