Air France incidents - not good.

[markis10]

Interesting read, cannot believe the erasing of voice recorders is tolerated!

Yet another Air France stuff up, this time on a 777 | Plane Talking

The French air safety investigator has released yet another damning report into a serious incident involving an Air France airliner, this time a Boeing 777-200 that was nearly flown into the ground approaching Paris Charles de Gaulle airport in November 2011. It closely follows a similar investigation into a botched approach to the same airport in March last year by the crew of an Air France Airbus A340-300, and in both cases the safety authority was frustrated in its inquiries by the erasure of the data on the main coughpit voice and data recording devices, the preservation of which is a legal duty Air France seems incapable of carrying out.

 

[lovestotravel]

I think it's pure luck that Air France haven't had more "incidents"

 

[Mogul]

Air Chance, no thanks.

 

[harvyk]

I guess a big question should be, if AF was not based in Europe, would it be on the Euro blacklist?

I'm still amazed how many times AF is listed in the "worlds safest airlines" lists considering there from an outsiders point of view is systematic safety failures, complete with 3 total loss of aircraft / fatal accidents accidents since 2000. (technically all within 9 years of each other).

To me this just screams of an airline that does not really care about safety.

 

[samh004]

They just need a government body to revoke permission to fly through airspace and they might finally wake up.

 

[mannej]

You can make stats say what they want, especially with the huge fleet AF have.

Aren't AF the first commercial airline to write off the A320, 330 and 340? (I may be wrong)

 

[RooFlyer]

They just need a government body to revoke permission to fly through airspace and they might finally wake up.

Quelle horreur! No doubt French government would swifty retaliate either in terms of air-rights of their own, or more nefarious if its a smaller country.

I'm grateful to markis10 for posting this.

 

[harvyk]

You can make stats say what they want, especially with the huge fleet AF have.

Aren't AF the first commercial airline to write off the A320, 330 and 340? (I may be wrong)

Why should the size of the fleet matter when it comes to airline safety? Surely if that's the case then there could be a valid argument that AF's management have over-extended themselves and they should be cutting back to a manageable fleet size.

I'm not going to pretend this is a utopian world and that aircraft crashes can't happen, what I will say however is the handling of even one event is what sets the safe airlines apart from the dangerous ones, and one could argue that AF does not appear to have very good systems in place to deal with mishaps.

 

[mannej]

Why should the size of the fleet matter when it comes to airline safety? Surely if that's the case then there could be a valid argument that AF's management have over-extended themselves and they should be cutting back to a manageable fleet size.

I'm not going to pretend this is a utopian world and that aircraft crashes can't happen, what I will say however is the handling of even one event is what sets the safe airlines apart from the dangerous ones, and one could argue that AF does not appear to have very good systems in place to deal with mishaps.

It is the reason as to how they pop up into the safe airlines list. Not saying its right but bigger fleet and more flights will let the stats hide these incidents as such

 

[harvyk]

It is the reason as to how they pop up into the safe airlines list. Not saying its right but bigger fleet and more flights will let the stats hide these incidents as such

Technically if you where to combine all of QF's fleet (so inc JQ and QFLink) you'd end up with a fleet larger than AF mainline (where the accidents have happened). I'm not saying QF are perfect as they have had incidents in the past, but in terms of fatal accidents QF is certainly sitting in front of AF.

Of course this is a classic example of manipulating the figures to prove a point. That said AFAIK QF is not right now being hauled under spotlights for being difficult towards safety authorities, AF is.

 

[drewbles]

Technically if you where to combine all of QF's fleet (so inc JQ and QFLink) you'd end up with a fleet larger than AF mainline (where the accidents have happened). I'm not saying QF are perfect as they have had incidents in the past, but in terms of fatal accidents QF is certainly sitting in front of AF.

Of course this is a classic example of manipulating the figures to prove a point. That said AFAIK QF is not right now being hauled under spotlights for being difficult towards safety authorities, AF is.

AF's main fleet (excluding Cargo) is 249 A/C. QF is 146. Compare apples with apples, as it's jet incidents we're looking at, not regional. Yes, adding QF Link and JQ will bump that up, but add in AF regional and they'll go up again. Cityjet have 40, then they're technically KLM too.

Having a huge fleet lets people manipulate the figures in ways that cloud the truth. Is it accurate? no. Moral? Certainly not. But they do it.

 

[JessicaTam]

Surely if maintaining the flight data was a requirement, the French aviation authorities could impose a penalty, particularly if it was a repeat offence. Either the culture or standard operating procedures are at fault. Either could be given a prod in the right direction with a 24 hour no-fly penalty, IMHO.

 

[petercr]

You can make stats say what they want, especially with the huge fleet AF have.

Aren't AF the first commercial airline to write off the A320, 330 and 340? (I may be wrong)

And add a Concorde as well (back last century) if you want to keep up with the list of French-made, French-flown product...

 

[drewbles]

And add a Concorde as well (back last century) if you want to keep up with the list of French-made, French-flown product...

Ah yes but with one hull loss, technically Concorde was one of the safest aircraft made (based on percentages) and number of flight hours (very low actually, much lower than 747's of a similar age).

See, manipulation of stats

 

[Fruitcake]

Ah yes but with one hull loss, technically Concorde was one of the safest aircraft made (based on percentages) and number of flight hours (very low actually, much lower than 747's of a similar age).

Wouldn't that make it amongst the most dangerous? After all, if one in fourteen production 747s had suffered a hull loss that would imply 105 747 hull losses, a bit over twice the actual rate.

 

[docjames]

Thanks markis10.

AF already were (and remain) on my personal "no fly" list.

 

[casanovawa]

I think if a black box is tampered with people should be sent to jail as well... I think that would probably reduce the incidents of it...

I'd probably fly them short haul in Europe, not sure about long haul...

 

[Mal]

Didn't read the articles, but that seems to be very damning evidence against the airline. Someone has to carry the can and feel the pain.

Not on my "to fly" list...

 

[TheEmu]

Interesting read, cannot believe the erasing of voice recorders is tolerated!

Yet another Air France stuff up, this time on a 777 | Plane Talking

The French air safety investigator has released yet another damning report into a serious incident involving an Air France airliner, this time a Boeing 777-200 that was nearly flown into the ground approaching Paris Charles de Gaulle airport in November 2011. It closely follows a similar investigation into a botched approach to the same airport in March last year by the crew of an Air France Airbus A340-300, and in both cases the safety authority was frustrated in its inquiries by the erasure of the data on the main coughpit voice and data recording devices, the preservation of which is a legal duty Air France seems incapable of carrying out.

AF and the french legal system are past masters at cover-up and blame someone else: Continental Airlines has only just (Dec 2012) managed to clear itself of blame in regard to the crash of Flight 4590 Concorde, 12 years and several court cases after the event. Operational errors and negligence are SOP at AF apparently. Avoid.

 

[BAM1748]

AF have a knack of always blaming others, in fact it seems to be a policy. Erasing data should be a €1m fine and/or invoke a rule of nil bonuses to directors. That's appalling.