Air Canada RJ impact with ground vehicle, at least 2 fatalities

[SYD]

Possibly but it's tilted despite the passengers having been evacuated

Maybe the wreckage at the front is holding up the front of the aircraft or the missing nose and front undercarriage moving the CoG rearward.

Media reporting says the witnesses say it tipped after evacuation.

 

[RSD]

Missing nose and front undercarriage would move the CoG rearward enough to rest the tail on the ground?

Most probably the nose riding upwards during the impact with the ARFF truck would have put the tail down, the loss of weight from the missing components may have meant that the C0G was no longer forward enough to bring the nose back down - or as SYD said the CoG may have shifted rearwards as the passengers evacuated. No doubt it will all be in the NTSB report.

 

[Quickstatus]

Media reporting says the witnesses say it tipped after evacuation.

Must be the loss of the nose action shifting the CoG to rear enough for it to be tilted like that. Still it's surprising it does not take much for it to tilt like that.

 

[justinbrett]

If as reported that LaGuardia runs just one controller on nightshift then that is just stupid even if it turns out to have not played a part in the incident.

I used to work in Darwin and we did combined Tower / Ground between 2200 - 0600. The X report above says there's 7 arrivals between 0000-0600 (it said 1200 but I assume that's a typo). That's very similar traffic to DRW for RPT but on top of that is light aircraft and private charters.

I think it's perfectly safe for that traffic level - although in DRW we had Approach in the tower at night as well - I'm unsure if LGA has a second person (non ATC) in the tower. But in most cases the tower and approach controllers in DRW were not cross trained so if you were doing Tower you were it - the other person was likely not trained and probably busy with their own workload (co-location was more for WHS purposes).

I;m having a difficult time believing that the controller said that he messed up given that the ARFF truck was on the wrong taxiway.

I'm not sure if that's been confirmed - the radio calls were perfectly adequate to me, so if the truck was not on Delta that's a problem - Tower is obligated to sight the vehicle before giving a clearance to cross.

Likewise anybody qualified to drive airside should be trained in sighting and avoiding aircraft regardless of ATC instructions - challenge ATC if you see an aircraft in your path.

IMO too many questions to lay blame at this point - but I do feel for the guy.

 

[SYD]

Must be the loss of the nose action shifting the CoG to rear enough for it to be tilted. Like that

Or simply there wasn’t a safe forward exit and about 3tn of PAX moved aft - probably very suddenly.

I wonder how many at the rear of the aircraft didn’t listen to the safety instructions and also went to the rear but realised that the exits are over wing…

 

[Quickstatus]

Or simply there wasn’t a safe forward exit and about 3tn of PAX moved aft - probably very suddenly.

Yes but if that's the cause of the aircraft tilting back. once the pax all evacuated the aircraft should settle back into the normal position?

 

[RSD]

I used to work in Darwin and we did combined Tower / Ground between 2200 - 0600. The X report above says there's 7 arrivals between 0000-0600 (it said 1200 but I assume that's a typo). That's very similar traffic to DRW for RPT but on top of that is light aircraft and private charters.

Listening to the recording there were several aircraft moving at the time - the Frontier who I think might have been taxiing to Runway 04 for takeoff, the United with the rejected takeoff and declaring an emergency due to an odor in the rear of the aircraft, a Delta was on final to land, and there was a Pilatus and an AA taxiing also - I think the AA had just landed - as well as the Canadian that was involved in the accident. It certainly sounded quite busy.

I'm not sure if that's been confirmed - the radio calls were perfectly adequate to me, so if the truck was not on Delta that's a problem - Tower is obligated to sight the vehicle before giving a clearance to cross.

Its an odd incident given that it was the ARFF truck that requested permission to cross at Delta - so it seems like he thought he was on Delta (or about to turn onto Delta) - it certainly seems like he was on either Echo or Foxtrot instead and heading to where those two come together and intersect with Runway 04.

Likewise anybody qualified to drive airside should be trained in sighting and avoiding aircraft regardless of ATC instructions - challenge ATC if you see an aircraft in your path.

I did my ARFF qual in the U.S. and one of the instructors was an ARFF captain at DFW - he said that at DFW it was a common occurence for ARFF trucks to have to dive off runways and taxiways at night to avoid oncoming aircraft - I remember him saying that about a week before the course started he his truck had to take avoiding action twice in one night.

IMO too many questions to lay blame at this point - but I do feel for the guy.

Agreed - why and how the ARFF truck ended up on the wrong taxiway will no doubt form part of the investigation.

 

[SYD]

Yes but if that's the cause of the aircraft tilting back. once the pax all evacuated the aircraft should settle back into the normal position?

I’m no expert, but plenty of reported incidents of tail tipping and not recovering.

 

[RSD]

Yes but if that's the cause of the aircraft tilting back. once the pax all evacuated the aircraft should settle back into the normal position?

Where's the baggage stowed on a CRJ? Underneath or at the rear like on a Q400?

I’m no expert, but plenty of reported incidents of tail tipping and not recovering.

Particularly on freighters.

 

[justinbrett]

Listening to the recording there were several aircraft moving at the time - the Frontier who I think might have been taxiing to Runway 04 for takeoff, the United with the rejected takeoff and declaring an emergency due to an odor in the rear of the aircraft, a Delta was on final to land, and there was a Pilatus and an AA taxiing also - I think the AA had just landed - as well as the Canadian that was involved in the accident. It certainly sounded quite busy.

You can only roster to the schedule - traffic will bunch up like this at times, I still don't think it's unreasonable as likely there's long periods of no traffic to average this out. There is the option to hold departures if safe traffic levels are exceeded.

I've certainly been in similar situations.

I did my ARFF qual in the U.S. and one of the instructors was an ARFF captain at DFW - he said that at DFW it was a common occurence for ARFF trucks to have to dive off runways and taxiways at night to avoid oncoming aircraft - I remember him saying that about a week before the course started he his truck had to take avoiding action twice in one night.

IMO a feature and not a bug. In DRW we did not actively separate vehicles from aircraft (other than on the runway with enter or cross clearances). It was up to the vehicle to watch out and give way as needed.

ARFF would be the top of my list of vehicles I would trust to do this.

 

[Quickstatus]

not sure if that's been confirmed

It was on the AtC audio - towards the end in this Link

the ARFF truck

More than one apparently were trying to cross

 

[Quickstatus]

Where's the baggage stowed on a CRJ? Underneath or at the rear like on a Q400?

Front and aft

I do read elsewhere the CRJ tend to be tail heavy due to rear engines.

 

[RSD]

I do read elsewhere the CRJ tend to be tail heavy due to rear engines.

That makes sense

 

[justinbrett]

It was on the AtC audio - towards the end in this Link

It only confirms the truck said he was on D.

No proof he wasn't as far as I've seen.

The second truck in the recording was the one responding to the incident. Nothing to suggest it was involved in the initial accident, although I'm guessing it was the vehicle in company with the first truck (pure speculation).

 

[RSD]

It was on the AtC audio - towards the end in this Link

Cheers - I hadn't seen/heard that particular one before. The Frontier pilots would have had a good view of the collision.

More than one apparently were trying to cross

Yes - they were responding to a United flight that had twice rejected its takeoff due to icing warnings and then it had an odor in the rear of the aircraft - for a while it was stopped on Alpha as there wasn't a gate available for it and so ARFF were starting to head towards it with a set of stairs as well, however before ARFF got close they suddenly had a gate open up and so were taxiing to that and ARFF were rerouting to follow the United to its gate.

 

[Quickstatus]

It only confirms the truck said he was on D.

No, the link was to show the ATC said "I messed up" towards the end of the audio - when talking with Frontier

To be clear I don't think anyone ahould attribute fault on the basis someone said "I messed up"

 

[justinbrett]

No, the link was to show the ATC said "I messed up" towards the end of the audio - when talking with Frontier

To be clear I don't think anyone can attribute fault just because someone said "I messed up"

But didn’t specify how he messed up.

 

[Quickstatus]

But didn’t specify how he messed up.

Correct
It was just to show that the phrase "I messed up "was said. I thought you mentioned thread that you were not certain of that?

 

[justinbrett]

Correct
It was just to show that the phrase "I messed up "was said. I thought you mentioned thread that you were not certain of that?

No, I wasn’t certain the truck was on the wrong taxiway.

 

[RSD]

It only confirms the truck said he was on D.

No proof he wasn't as far as I've seen.

My thinking is that the collision occurred about where (edit) Echo & Foxtrot intersect (where I've put the cross).

The second truck in the recording was the one responding to the incident. Nothing to suggest it was involved in the initial accident, although I'm guessing it was the vehicle in company with the first truck (pure speculation).

I got the feeling that the second ARFF truck (32) was coming from a different direction, and my suspicion is that following the incident ARFF truck was the air stairs that were originally sent out to the United when it was stopped on the Alpha taxiway with its odor problem - but that is just my reading between the lines of it.