ACCC action re cancelled Qantas flights

[jb747]

So, they aren't really an airline at all. Alan's long term goal achieved.

 

[RooFlyer]

Someone please tell QF to stop digging.....They can easily make the problem go away - what was their profit again?

Look to the airline’s Chief Counsel, Finch and his performance in front of the Senate committee, and you get an idea of the likelihood of Qantas amicably settling.

I used to work for a very large Australian corporation where the chief lawyer had a similar attitude - we are right, we are right, we are right; never surrender. They didn’t surrender until the very last moment when the executives were giving evidence in court and being grilled by the opposition lawyer, then they folded and it cost them a lot more than it’s going to cost Qantas.

This is where the relative inexperience of Vanessa Hudson in the CEO role may prove pivotal. Does she have the wherewithal to go against Finch who has been in the role for longer than she has?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

All this talk by Qantas about not providing fee for no service really reminds me of this classic Qantas tunes - Status for Nothin'

Now look at them yo-yos, that's the way you do it
You stand in queue in Sydney
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Now that ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya, them guys ain't dumb
Maybe miss your lil domestic flight
Maybe get stranded in Taiwan
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
See the little fa_got with the earring and the make up
Yeah, buddy, that's his own hair
That little fa_got got his own jet airplane
That little fa_got, he's a millionaire
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
Looky here, look out
I should've learned to fly with other's money
I should've learned how to milage run
Look at that mama, she got it stickin' on the baggage tag
We could have some
And he's up there, what's that?
Hawaiian noises?
Bangin' on the Qantas desk
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Get your status for nothin', and your vouchers for free
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
Listen here
Now that ain't flyin' that's the way you do it
You stand in queue in Sydney
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Status for nothin', vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free

Look at that, look at that
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, Stranded)
Vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Status for nothin', vouchers for free (Stranded, stranded, stranded in Sydney)
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
And your vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
And your vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Easy, easy status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
Easy, easy vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
That ain't flyin'

Status for nothing, vouchers for free
Status for nothing, vouchers for free

-RooFlyer88

 

[MARTINE]

All this talk by Qantas about not providing fee for no service really reminds me of this classic Qantas tunes - Status for Nothin'

Now look at them yo-yos, that's the way you do it
You stand in queue in Sydney
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Now that ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya, them guys ain't dumb
Maybe miss your lil domestic flight
Maybe get stranded in Taiwan
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
See the little fa_got with the earring and the make up
Yeah, buddy, that's his own hair
That little fa_got got his own jet airplane
That little fa_got, he's a millionaire
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
Looky here, look out
I should've learned to fly with other's money
I should've learned how to milage run
Look at that mama, she got it stickin' on the baggage tag
We could have some
And he's up there, what's that?
Hawaiian noises?
Bangin' on the Qantas desk
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Get your status for nothin', and your vouchers for free
We got to handle your calls, Platinum Ones
We got to move these checked bags, we got to tow this A380
Listen here
Now that ain't flyin' that's the way you do it
You stand in queue in Sydney
That ain't flyin', that's the way you do it
Status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Status for nothin', vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free
Get your status for nothin' and your vouchers for free

Look at that, look at that
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, Stranded)
Vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Status for nothin', vouchers for free (Stranded, stranded, stranded in Sydney)
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
And your vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Get your status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
And your vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Easy, easy status for nothin' (Stranded, stranded)
Easy, easy vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
Vouchers for free (Stranded in Sydney)
That ain't flyin'

Status for nothing, vouchers for free
Status for nothing, vouchers for free

-RooFlyer88

Brilliant
Mark knopfler would be proud

I am imagining AJ et al in their white livery pumping it out.

And the finale is not ‘I want my MTV’ but
‘dont want no ACCC’

 

[Mr H]

Let me get this right:


View attachment 352418

But this is pretty much what we accept anyway - and regardless of the airline. Just look in these threads at people who get nervous about 3 hour connections and plan to fly a day ahead in case of irrops. People know the compensation they would get in Europe and the likely compensation in Australia. People know when they book their 318,000 OWAs a year ahead that the flights are liable to change and routes might get pulled. Always, the talk is about alternative routings and being put up in hotels - not getting compensation for consequential loss. Sp on this one, I would say Qantas is quite right.

 

[Quickstatus]

Just look in these threads

The problem is these threads are populated by people who are not your usual Qantas customer - these are not your "ordinary and reasonable customer" referred to by Qantas in its reply.

 

[downgraded]

The problem is these threads are populated by people who are not your usual Qantas customer - these are not your "ordinary and reasonable customer" referred to by Qantas in its reply.

But an ordinary and reasonable customer expects that when they select a specific flight that QF has differentiated price on by no other means than the departure time, that a reasonable airline would have as a priority to get the customer on that flight. Once upon a time they offered more differentiated ticketing options so when the cheap service was gone you actually got a differentiated service for the higher cost. Now they want their cake and eat it too - red E deal flights costing 2-3 times their cheapest available price but with no additional offered service - apparently not even a best endeavours intention to stick to the headline sales proposition that you've paid extra for a particular departure time - another case of bait and switch?

 

[Brissy1]

But this is pretty much what we accept anyway - and regardless of the airline. Just look in these threads at people who get nervous about 3 hour connections and plan to fly a day ahead in case of irrops. People know the compensation they would get in Europe and the likely compensation in Australia. People know when they book their 318,000 OWAs a year ahead that the flights are liable to change and routes might get pulled. Always, the talk is about alternative routings and being put up in hotels - not getting compensation for consequential loss. Sp on this one, I would say Qantas is quite right.

I think it is clearly deceptive to claim you have a product when you don't, even if your T&Cs provide that you can change the product.

 

[Quickstatus]

ordinary and reasonable customer

Exactly
Basically the airline is saying that a full service customer is no different to to a LCC customer because both passengers are entitled to the same bundle of rights. There is no differentiation, the "bundle of rights" are effectively the same. (Also Same for a Full fare vs Red e Deal)..
Stop digging a deeper hole

 

[kangarooflyer88]

But an ordinary and reasonable customer expects that when they select a specific flight that QF has differentiated price on by no other means than the departure time, that a reasonable airline would have as a priority to get the customer on that flight.

I think it is reasonable to expect that if you book a ticket for a flight that you will either be on that flight or in the event of a cancellation the next available flight. This has always been the case. Delays and cancellations have been a reality of aviation since the very beginning.

I think it is clearly deceptive to claim you have a product when you don't, even if your T&Cs provide that you can change the product.

That is where the deception comes in. It's one thing if you sell a specific flight with the reasonable intent of performing it versus selling a flight you know darn well you won't be able to perform since internally you cancelled it. It would like Qantas publishing a schedule offering flights to SYD out of SIN every half hour (to incentivize customers to book with them), then to pull the rug from under the traveller's feet and say, whoops, technical error, actually we've got just 2 flights a day out to SYD from SIN, we'll rebook you on the next available flight which departs 3 days after your scheduled departure. It is for shenanigans like this that EU261 and APPR exist.

Basically the airline is saying that a full service customer is no different to to a LCC customer because both passengers are entitled to the same bundle of rights. There is no differentiation, the "bundle of rights" are effectively the same. (Same for a Full fare vs Red e Deal)..

What you are entitled to by the airline does not generally matter if you pay with points or cash, choose the cheapest basic economy fare versus the most expensive First class fare. Generally they need to get you on the next available flight and depending on the jurisdiction offer cash compensation, meals, and accommodation as the case may be. Where a higher class may come into play is benefits they provide over and above those statutory rights. For instance, it might be easier for the First class passenger to get customer service over, say, a Lifetime Bronze travelling on a red e-deal. In addition, sometimes the higher fare causes additional complications. For instance, the next available flight in Business might take off a day later whereas there are plenty of seats available in economy on the flight departing in an hour. In the case of Canada specifically, and APPR, sometimes the airline need to put you in business class (flying coach) since that's all that's available on the next available flight (ask me how I know this).

-RooFlyer88

 

[TheRealTMA]

Exactly
Basically the airline is saying that a full service customer is no different to to a LCC customer because both passengers are entitled to the same bundle of rights. There is no differentiation, the "bundle of rights" are effectively the same. (Same for a Full fare vs Red e Deal)..
Stop digging a deeper hole

Strange - I thought Qantas had said previously that customers don't actually have any "rights" and it's up to the airline to define what they get.

 

[Mr H]

I think it is reasonable to expect that if you book a ticket for a flight that you will either be on that flight or in the event of a cancellation the next available flight. This has always been the case. Delays and cancellations have been a reality of aviation since the very beginning.

So have route changes. There is inevitably a gap between an airline starting to consider pulling a route or a flight and stopping the selling of tickets. There is no magic moment when things flip from everything being hunky-dory to it being clear that a flight won't operate. It's a gradual process.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Strange - I thought Qantas had said previously that customers don't actually have any "rights" and it's up to the airline to define what they get.

They purchase a bundle of rights which in the case of Qantas is an empty bundle!

So have route changes. There is inevitably a gap between an airline starting to consider pulling a route or a flight and stopping the selling of tickets. There is no magic moment when things flip from everything being hunky-dory to it being clear that a flight won't operate. It's a gradual process.

That may be the case but do you think it is appropriate to keep selling tickets when you decided not to operate a flight now for several weeks as the ACCC alleges Qantas has done? Indeed, Qantas has admitted that there were flights they cancelled months ahead of time but did not notify customers since they didn't want a deluge of calls to their call centre and wanted time to find alternate flights for them. Which begs the question: are paying passengers of an air service entitled to prompt notification of delays and cancellations? One would think the answer here should be yes, but apparently staying informed is not considered part of the bundle of rights Qantas assigns us.

-RooFlyer88

 

[CMA222]

They purchase a bundle of rights which in the case of Qantas is an empty bundle!

No the Pax has rights:
- the right to peruse an aspirational list of possible flights and flight times;
- the right to choose the pax's preferred aspirational flight and class of travel;
- the right and obligation to pay for it immediately, even though QF has no contractual obligation to deliver and can choose at any time to cancel and offer a voucher (or maybe a 12 week delayed refund);
- the right to chose a preferred seat in a preferred class, that QF has no obligation to honour;
- the right to have all travel plans and prepaid accommodation bookings disrupted when it suits QF to do so or because QF cannot achieve the aspirational listed flights because of lack of aircraft, or operating crew or because its not profitable to operate a flight that can be consolidated or when the pax can be shifted to another flight, that makes even more profit, no matter the effect of the disruption to the pax's plans. QF's attitude - that's what travel insurance is for - and BTW we(QF) will sell you travel insurance.
- the right when QF cancels or delays a flight to cancel your ticket and request a refund, and then re-book on another carrier at short notice and pay far more then the fare QF offered (2x or 3x) and which was a large part of the motivation to book that flight in the first place.
- the right to go and fly with another carrier and not bother QF with all the hassles that pax cause them.
- the right to be apologised to by QF, over and over again, as their estimate of compensation you are entitled to.

 

[Seat0B]

That is where the deception comes in. It's one thing if you sell a specific flight with the reasonable intent of performing it versus selling a flight you know darn well you won't be able to perform since internally you cancelled it.

Exactly, and if that does not meet the standard of deceptive or misleading conduct under the consumer legislation, then the legislation is not fit for purpose. Especially when you make the customer pay in full up front for the service you never intended to provide them. It is honestly just appalling behaviour.

 

[Seat0B]

So have route changes. There is inevitably a gap between an airline starting to consider pulling a route or a flight and stopping the selling of tickets. There is no magic moment when things flip from everything being hunky-dory to it being clear that a flight won't operate. It's a gradual process.

It is a gradual process, but once the decision to cancel the flight has been made, then selling tickets for that definitively cancelled flight should definitely be stopped.

It's a bit like buying a ticket to a concert involving an international artist. You know when you buy that ticket that many things might intervene and the concert may not go ahead - everything from COVID border closures to artist getting sick to promoter going broke, but imagine the furore if the concert was secretly cancelled and the promoter did not tell you that the concert was cancelled and continued to sell tickets to that, take your money and then put you through the sort of hurdles that Qantas does to get your money back. Or said, no worries, your concert is cancelled but we've assigned you to another artist's concert on the same day as the original one. Oh and the concert you've been assigned to is actually half the price of the one you booked, but we are not refunding you because you still got a concert and we did not guarantee exactly which one you would get. After all a concert is a concert.

And let's be honest, no one really NEEDS to go to a concert the way many people genuinely need to take a particular flight in order to meet work obligations, connect with other arrangements they have made, attend important personal appointments or family events etc.

 

[Seat0B]

QF's attitude - that's what travel insurance is for - and BTW we(QF) will sell you travel insurance.

And this attitude assumes that all the things the pax lose are able to be compensated financially. I know people who have missed out on attending significant family events because of flight cancellations like these, and there is no amount of money that will make that right.

 

[Quickstatus]

I also can't get my head around Qantas's claim that they only realised that they could not operate their full schedule of flights only some time after those flights starting operating.

Did the executive push aside any risk management concerns in its rush to return to the skies?

 

[Gremlin]

I also can't get my head around Qantas's claim that they only realised that they could not operate their full schedule of flights only some time after those flights starting operating.

Did the executive push aside any risk management concerns in its rush to return to the skies?

I think it's a lot easier to get your head around it if you believe it's just complete spin, instead of a genuine response...

 

[Mr H]

It's a bit like buying a ticket to a concert involving an international artist.

Actually that's a good example. Having experienced a cancelled concert myself last year (Eric Bogle, if anyone is interested), I was told the concert would be rescheduled for another unspecified date in the future and my money would not be refunded.