A discussion on the ethics and legality of scripting 1 cent transactions!

[mitwg]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Maybe the deception could be that one has set up an automated payment program, and is pretending to be a retail customer. To me that's a long bow, but judges can be old fuddy duddies sometimes.

If this was true word by word, then yes that would be deception because you are making a payment that the merchant that would not have otherwise accepted.

But setting up a macro to automate what you'd normally do (i.e. you can perfectly make these payments yourself $0.01 at a time) is different to 'pretending' to be a customer. In this case, it is an automation of the customer's tasks.

 

[adam15]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I think that expecting me to sympathise with a bank fails the 'reasonable man' test.

 

[Ghostdunks]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Do you think that this scenario, obtaining a benefit worth $12k or more by exploiting this loophole passes the "reasonable Man" test? Would a reasonable Man make tens of thousands of automated $0.01 transactions?

Does a reasonable man buy thousands(over 12000 individual pudding servings) of pudding cups?

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps, yes. However if they've allowed it to go on for this long, the "reasonable person" test would say they are just as guilty

Well to be deceptive conduct someone has to be deceived. Perhaps a year ago BWA could have made this claim. But they are well aware of this conduct and have done nothing about it, the ability to say you were deceived by something is diminished somewhat when it can be shown you were well aware of it, and by doing nothing established a pattern of acceptance of that behaviour.

 

[N860CR]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Well to be deceptive conduct someone has to be deceived. Perhaps a year ago BWA could have made this claim. But they are well aware of this conduct and have done nothing about it, the ability to say you were deceived by something is diminished somewhat when it can be shown you were well aware of it, and by doing nothing established a pattern of acceptance of that behaviour.

Exactly. And we know they closed the account of Rick(whatever) under their clause that allows closing of accounts without grounds. They were aware then, exercised their right to close an account, and the world moved on. That was their chance to stop it - they elected not to.

As said, they're entitled to go ahead and close accounts without grounds in accordance with the accounts T&C. That is their prerogative. This is yet to occur in large volume.

End of discussion.

 

[coles525]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Does a reasonable man buy thousands(over 12000 individual pudding servings) of pudding cups?

Only if they have a major fettish with pudding cups

Hoarding quite a lot!

 

[dodgeyhack]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

As far as deception is concerned, I would think that building a macro to make thousands of $0.01 transactions on a billers website to pay a bill when one single transaction would achieve the outcome of the bill being paid qualifies as deception.

Is that similar to making lots of little threads on a forum to make a point?

This is a useful thread that is being polluted with noise. I suggest sitting back and laughing once we all have our points taken away.

 

[Kangol]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

You haven't quoted the entire section so relevavance = nil

As I have said in a recent post, ask if this scenario with the $0.01 transaction pass the "reasonable Man" test and see how you go.

You have chosen not to answer any of my questions, suggesting that they will either prove you wrong, contradict the content of your previous posts, or anything else that may likely put you in a negative light.

You have also chosen to introduce a new point ("reasonable man"), which has taken you several posts now to bring up, suggesting that you are backpedalling and that your initial points had no weight and no credibility.

If you really want to show [to yourself] that you are of some value to someone, answer my questions and directly respond to the issues of fraud and deception. I had the courtesy to answer yours, after all....

 

[N860CR]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Sounds like he/she is just a bank teller with a slightly elevated opinion of his/her self.

As mentioned earlier, can the mods tidy this up a bit so we can get back on topic

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

You have also chosen to introduce a new point ("reasonable man"),

If you really want to show [to yourself] that you are of some value to someone, answer my questions and directly respond to the issues of fraud and deception. I had the courtesy to answer yours, after all....

The "reasonable Man" test is a standard legal term used when it comes to matters such as this. What would a reasonable Man do?

As far as your demand that I answer your questions - I don't take dictation from you.

As for my qualifications, have a look at the posts I have made over the last 11 years and look at the depth of knowledge about wholesale weighted average interchange, payment cards and systems, risk and future development and also insight into other markets and ask yourself "I wonder how he knows these things?"

A reasonable Man would do that.

 

[trixydoza]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

The "reasonable person" defence means extremely little in Australian law as pertains to the financial sector, nutcase. Not that this situation has any chance of coming down to something like that.

You do like that "wholesale weighted average interchange" term, don't you? I'm more concerned about a "lawyer" who doesn't understand the concept of fraud and deception and misrepresentation.

 

[N860CR]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

The "reasonable Man" test is a standard legal term used when it comes to matters such as this. What would a reasonable Man do?

As far as your demand that I answer your questions - I don't take dictation from you.

As for my qualifications, have a look at the posts I have made over the last 11 years and look at the depth of knowledge about wholesale weighted average interchange, payment cards and systems, risk and future development and also insight into other markets and ask yourself "I wonder how he knows these things?"

A reasonable Man would do that.

A "reasonable man" will take whatever steps they can to fully utalise the terms of their agreement with a major bank (is CBA still the largest... Can't recall)

Just as bankwest used the fullest extent of their terms to ruin multiple lives during the GFC by calling in business loans in an immoral (however still within the bounds of the terms of the loan) ways.

It's give and take. In this instance, all these consumers are doing is acting within the bounds of the T&C of the product issued by one of if not the most profitable organisations in this country.

Unless you're the CEO of CBA (and I'd put a huge amount of money on you not being), try to use some perspective

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Here are the answers:
Macros can be used for anything. The macro is not illegal or deceptive.
Multiple accounts per person are not allowed. That has never been the case here. One account per person is allowed and there is nothing wrong or illegal with that.
Multiple cards are allowed by the bank. If they weren't, then the bank would not be issuing them.
There is no deceptive conduct. The terms and conditions are being adhered to. An eligible purchase is made, and the appropriate number of reward points are awarded. This is no different to a credit card awarding points.

Apologies as this is not my discussion but there are reports in this thread of multiple accounts per person and there are multiple cards issued per account where an additional card was requested and issued but previous card not cancelled. And then systematically using multiple cards from multiple accounts to pay 1 bill in $0.01 increments up to the maximum permitted per day.

Deception? Nah! Shut up John....

 

[Winston1]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I'm not doing this thing, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
Would I do something like this to a mom & pop business? No way.
But remember banks have zero conscience and will push the limits of all kinds of rules and laws to get as much of our money (billions per quarter). Seriously, why should we feel bad about playing the game hard like they do?

 

[Kangol]

Apologies as this is not my discussion but there are reports in this thread of multiple accounts per person and there are multiple cards issued per account where an additional card was requested and issued but previous card not cancelled. And then systematically using multiple cards from multiple accounts to pay 1 bill in $0.01 increments up to the maximum permitted per day.

Deception? Nah! Shut up John....

Please link the post(s) relating to "multiple accounts per person".
If multiple cards were not allowed, then there would be no possibility of doing the above.
Is there a clause in the T&Cs that specifically states this?

The "reasonable Man" test is a standard legal term used when it comes to matters such as this. What would a reasonable Man do?

As far as your demand that I answer your questions - I don't take dictation from you.

As for my qualifications, have a look at the posts I have made over the last 11 years and look at the depth of knowledge about wholesale weighted average interchange, payment cards and systems, risk and future development and also insight into other markets and ask yourself "I wonder how he knows these things?"

A reasonable Man would do that.

Nothing to offer, not surprised!



A "reasonable man" would find it not abnormal that when you have been shown to be wrong and somewhat humiliated, you would not want to be forthcoming with answering any more questions because it would make you look even worse

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Yes, the product is flawed however this is not an excuse to exploit that for personal gain to the tune of 600,000 points.

By the same token the customer is not committing fraud because the bank paying lots of payment processing fees because some bank johnny failed to do their job properly.

Perhaps get over the 600000 point example. Lets get back to someone who has made say 15x $0.02 payments = 75 points. Or lets get back to someone who has 1 card on 1 account and makes sure to do 50 small transactions per day. According to you that is fraud because it costs the bank money, even if I make those payments manually. That seems to be an unreasonable position to take.

If this were hard currency then the maximum would be 20 x $0.01 transactions.

It's not hard currency. IIRC the banks were pretty keen on abolishing 1 cent coins as hard currency.

Does a reasonable man buy thousands(over 12000 individual pudding servings) of pudding cups?

Or a pallet load of cat food...

Hey nutcase / nutjob / whateveryanameis....

STFU!


Some of us are here to read and contribute meaningfully to this thread and you're clogging up airspace with useless dribble. THREE F&^&Ting pages worth that the rest of the AFF community had to wade through this morning, just to see if there was a meaningful contribution from a meaningful member.

By all means - debate the points you are making - OVER IN THE PLAYGROUND THREAD!

This is actually a very important, on topic discussion relevant to this account. Look at the title "Bankwest Transaction Account [general discussion]". This discussion serves as a very timely and useful reminder of the risks of making one specific use of the account, which has been discussed for 50 pages or more. It also serves to outline the potential view that the provider of the product takes of their customers - regardless of the particular qualifications/position of Nutcase.

I might personally believe that 50 pages on $0.01 payments is clogged airspace re the account in general, versus a specific use of the account. But I don't tell people to STFU!.

Of course, I also believe that some of the recent posts are quite abusive and lowers the general tone of AFF. But that's just me, clearly.

 

[scubabe]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I have one account.

The day I opened it, in branch, the teller specifically told me that the minimum transaction amount to earn 5 QFF points was 1 cent.
She even wrote it down on the account opening paperwork for me
And then, more specifically, she told me that a good way to increase my points earn would be to go to Coles and use their self-checkout facility and pay for my items one by one or even to split the payment in the checkout and pay in 1 cent increments.
She reminded me that I could only do it 50 times per day, but... voila.
SHE TOLD ME I COULD DO IT.

A few months after opening it, I went into branch to request the platinum card for my account.
The teller specifically told me that both cards would continue to work and I could use whichever card I liked and they would both work. So I could leave one at home and keep one in my purse and they would both always work.

I have done absolutely nothing deceptive or fraudulent in obtaining or using this account. Bankwest representatives TOLD ME I could use it in this manner. They know how the accounts are being used by a select few, and they are happy (at the moment) to keep them open. If the gravy train stops, it stops, but right now I will continue to use it in the manner which BankWest themselves suggested I use it in order to get the maximum amount of QFF points per day.

 

[ETA_2022]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Apologies as this is not my discussion but there are reports in this thread of multiple accounts per person and there are multiple cards issued per account where an additional card was requested and issued but previous card not cancelled. And then systematically using multiple cards from multiple accounts to pay 1 bill in $0.01 increments up to the maximum permitted per day.

Deception? Nah! Shut up John....

Don't make the mistake of assuming that many people have multiple accounts. It's much more likely that most, if not all, are using cards from other's accounts (with permission), in addition to their own cards.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Don't make the mistake of assuming that many people have multiple accounts. It's much more likely that most, if not all, are using cards from other's accounts (with permission), in addition to their own cards.

Am I misreading the post above yours?

 

[scubabe]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Am I misreading the post above yours?

Yes you appear to be.

I clearly stated I have ONE account