A discussion on the ethics and legality of scripting 1 cent transactions!

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Nutcase

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It seems I have got exactly same problem with iMacro. Would someone be so kind to post a FULL working iMacro Script for Telstra payments? I have spent hours trying to get mine working to no avail.

You guys are hard core with the points.

With all due respect, I get what you're doing and why wouldn't you?

Personally, I'm glad I'm out of this club/cult now to be honest. This particular gravy train cannot continue. Its only going to take a BA in either BWA or the biller to do some work and the points will be reversed out.

Its also too much of a red flag to have this volume of transactions going through payment gateways and systems before its picked up. The cost of the transaction for the biller is outweighing the amount being paid. They wont do that for long.
 
D

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

and the points will be reversed out.
I'm not in this "cult" either, but I can't see how the points could be reversed as there is no breach of Ts&Cs that I can see. (Mind you, I haven't read it too closely).
 

NoName

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Good luck trying to reverse the points given it is within the T&C. Will not happen.


"They won't do that for long"

And what is your definition of long? It's been nearly 2yrs now.
 

burmans

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

The cost of the transaction for the biller is outweighing the amount being paid. They wont do that for long.
An interesting handle, not necessarily easy to attach much weight to your opinion when you call yourself that! :)

But I will bite, some of these billers have been putting up with this for 18 months, does that equate to long for you? What they have done is try and make it hard for people to automate but this clearly doesn't stop everyone.

As for this comment.

Its only going to take a BA in either BWA or the biller to do some work and the points will be reversed out.

Well no one has actually done this, probably because this activity isn't actually breaching the T&C's. BWA does have the right to close an account and have done so, but they haven't attempted to reverse any points. Given they certainly know this is going on would have to suggest this is because they have had legal advice they can't. As for the idea a BA in the biller having access to BWS systems and personal information in that system, seriously, have you heard of privacy laws.
 

Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I'm not in this "cult" either, but I can't see how the points could be reversed as there is no breach of Ts&Cs that I can see. (Mind you, I haven't read it too closely).

I haven't either however Ive spent my career in banking and it would be highly unusual for the PDS or T's and C's not to have some reference to "fair use" or "transactions we deem..." etc. Banks always cover their backsides.

The problem for the biller is that theres a cost to process which is at least $0.10 depending on how they calculate it. The gateway has a click fee and so does the bank. If you're doing $0.01 transactions then its a giant red flag. You'll also throw out their average transaction amount and lifting their transactions which is a red flag for them, the bank and the gateway. Its got "risk" written all over it. Theres also an issue with Chargebacks for both sides. If you ever had to dispute the bill with BWA, how would you do it?

Don't get me wrong, Im not objecting or judging. Ive seen more than my fair share of rorts and ponzi schemes in my career and this is neither. Theres nothing illegal here. Its just not sustainable for anyone except the points recipient.
 

Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

An interesting handle, not necessarily easy to attach much weight to your opinion when you call yourself that! :)

I notice that you joined in 2006.

I joined in 2005. :)
 

NoName

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I don't think there is a single person who has posted on this thread who thinks it will go on forever. I'm pretty sure all you've done is echo the sentiments of every person who is making these payments.
 

Valdek

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps a less defensive approach may work better for you? Worth a try I would suggest.

Just because its been going on for 18 months doesn't mean that it will go on forever. Billers know their systems and the trends. Whats happening here is definitely an outlier. Banks do as well.

With regard to the BA comment: Perhaps I wasn't clear. There are multiple parties to an online transaction like this. The Biller, A Gateway, A merchant acquirer and a bank. Some of these things are handled by one company and some are not. Some have visibility and some do not. Sometimes the gateway, the acquirer and the bank are the same place and sometimes not.

Having said that, in this value chain businesses make money doing different things. The gateway charges a "click fee" or transaction fee. The merchant acquirer charges an MSF (Merchant service fee) which is a flat fee not a percentage because they are deemed to be a utility and this over rides the interchange on your card.

Looking at this from an economic perspective, the biller is well underwater with this arrangement. The bank issuing your card (BWA) is well under water with this arrangement too.

The gateway and the acquirer are the only ones making money. The acquirer will also have to manage chargeback risk more closely which may well be the trigger. Multiple small transactions are a red flag. Maybe not today but it will happen.

As I said in a previous post, Banks may take time to discover these things but they always do. This sort of thing has been part of my banking career for a long time. My favourite is fraud and Ponzi schemes with ATM deployers. This is not fraud though. Just dodgy.

Bank product managers must manage a profitable portfolio. The most expensive part of this product for them is the points. It will get focus.

Read the items above. Perhaps theres a clue as to my background? Perhaps I could just email the product manager for this specific BWA retail product as they are on my linked feed and get their direct opinion but realistically she already knows.

My point is simple, Make hay while the sun shines and don't be so defensive.


Do we get a full picture?
We can be certain the BW is well aware of the situation and keeps monitoring it regularly. Why the allowing all this to happen? They are also aware that there is more than 10 milion members of Qantas FF program in this country and ALL are interested in gathering more points. Would you think of a better incentive to attract millions of potential customers to open a new account with a new financial institution? No matter how much money would be spent on any kind of advertising campain results would not be even close to what they are getting now. It will not go forever, we all agree but for now I think they are winning - not losing. Someone did the figures right.
 

burmans

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps a less defensive approach may work better for you? Worth a try I would suggest.

Just because its been going on for 18 months doesn't mean that it will go on forever. Billers know their systems and the trends. Whats happening here is definitely an outlier. Banks do as well.

With regard to the BA comment: Perhaps I wasn't clear. There are multiple parties to an online transaction like this. The Biller, A Gateway, A merchant acquirer and a bank. Some of these things are handled by one company and some are not. Some have visibility and some do not. Sometimes the gateway, the acquirer and the bank are the same place and sometimes not.

Having said that, in this value chain businesses make money doing different things. The gateway charges a "click fee" or transaction fee. The merchant acquirer charges an MSF (Merchant service fee) which is a flat fee not a percentage because they are deemed to be a utility and this over rides the interchange on your card.

Looking at this from an economic perspective, the biller is well underwater with this arrangement. The bank issuing your card (BWA) is well under water with this arrangement too.

The gateway and the acquirer are the only ones making money. The acquirer will also have to manage chargeback risk more closely which may well be the trigger. Multiple small transactions are a red flag. Maybe not today but it will happen.

As I said in a previous post, Banks may take time to discover these things but they always do. This sort of thing has been part of my banking career for a long time. My favourite is fraud and Ponzi schemes with ATM deployers. This is not fraud though. Just dodgy.

Bank product managers must manage a profitable portfolio. The most expensive part of this product for them is the points. It will get focus.

Read the items above. Perhaps theres a clue as to my background? Perhaps I could just email the product manager for this specific BWA retail product as they are on my linked feed and get their direct opinion but realistically she already knows.

My point is simple, Make hay while the sun shines and don't be so defensive.
Don't get me wrong, I too am amazed it gone of for so long, but it has.

As for your definition of how banking works, yes I know how banking works, thanks. But all your speculation kind of ignores the evidence, we don't need to speculate over where BWA know about this, we know they do and have done so for a least a year based on information that came out a year ago when Rick was thrown out. And yet they are still allowing it. Rick would appear to have been thrown out based on complaints from Coles.

Are they going to close this down, we'll I've been waiting for this a very long time but has yet to happen. So I suspect overall BWA are happy with the product, despite these outliers. The logical approach would seem to be to implement a minimum transaction size on the transaction but even this has yet to occur. While bank technology upgrades certainly can be slow, not fixing after knowing about it for a year suggests they are a lot less concerned with this behaviour than you are.
 

burmans

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I notice that you joined in 2006.

I joined in 2005. :)
Not sure what length of membership has to do with it, my point was that when someone calls themselves something derogatory my gut impression is to believe them!
 

coles525

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Happiness is the key:

Steve Winwood: While you see a chance.

Please, listen to the song. Ignore everything else while this song continues to play ;)
 

Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

We are not going to agree on much thats clear.

Lets see how long it goes on and if and when they claw back the points. Who knows?

I know what I would be looking at as head of Product in retail but I'm not in that role so thats irrelevant.

Performing mental gymnastics around how BWA will behave when they decide to act is pointless. As much as you can protest, they can indeed claw back points. I know you will argue this with me and with them but thats reality which is why there is no hurry to do much.

Assuming something from a name is very dangerous. Who would have thought that someone with the middle name "Hussein" would be President of the USA?
 

coles525

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Don't forget the NAB citylink a few years ago. Babk required to fully pay all points
 

burmans

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

As much as you can protest, they can indeed claw back points. I know you will argue this with me and with them but thats reality which is why there is no hurry to do much.
Sure, just point out the clause in the PDS and I'll believe you. I agree they can not give points (clause 5) and have done so, but that's not the same as clawing back.
 

Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Sure, just point out the clause in the PDS and I'll believe you. I agree they can not give points (clause 5) and have done so, but that's not the same as clawing back.



A quick call to Qantas loyalty from BWA with a spreadsheet showing what you've been up to would fix it and the points reversed.

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is how it works.
 
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Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

How did NAB go when they tried to refuse to give points to the guy abusing the 100pt per transaction promotion a few years ago? Sorry to rain on your parade but what you are saying is well removed from reality. They won't reverse points because they know they won't get away with it. The worst they will do is boot people out and never allow them to have a BW account again.

Theres T's and C's with Bankwest and Qantas to consider. Qantas can claw them back.
 
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Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Sure, just point out the clause in the PDS and I'll believe you. I agree they can not give points (clause 5) and have done so, but that's not the same as clawing back.

Its not just Bank West. Qantas have their own T's and C's as well. Its well and truly covered.
 

Nutcase

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

You can keep repeating you lines as much as you like but it won't change the reality that no points will ever be reversed.

Lets see how long the party lasts :)
 

burmans

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Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps having a look at those for some relevant clauses would be a good idea?
Indeed, so if they have the ability under the PDS to claw these back why indeed are you unable/unwilling to point this clause out?
 
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