Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[LionKing]

I wanted to further justify why I want those crazy early morning ex-WSI flights:

Brisbane

Let's start with BNE. Definitely worth to launch departure ex-WSI between 4am - 5:30am, because it would allow Qantas to connect with these services which they cannot do at the moment:






Currently, passengers from SYD can only arrive Moranbah and Emerald at 11am, which a mcuh more early morning departure can connect with these regional services.

Adelaide








The first arrival into ADL is 8.05am. The above services would have been missed without a 5am departure ex-WSI. Note: QF1816 arrives ASP 3 hours earlier than direct SYD-ASP.

Melbourne

A 5am departure from WSI would connect with these services:

[td]QF1291[/td]
[td]
HobartHobart[/td] [td]08:05[/td]

[td]QF2091[/td]
[td]
LauncestonLaunceston[/td] [td]08:10[/td]

[td]QF2085[/td]
[td]
BurnieBurnie[/td] [td]08:20[/td]

[td]QF2078[/td]
[td]
MilduraMildura[/td] [td]08:30[/td]

MCT at MEL is 40 minutes, and first service arrives MEL at 7.35am. Some regional service may be missed.

Perth



This will allow early arrival into PER sufficient to connect with these early services into regional WA.

Cairns

A 5am departure will allow connections to Weipa and Horn Island in the morning.

WSI may not be attractive during the day

I don't think at the earlier stage we need more than 2x daily ex-WSI to major cities between 8am - 4pm daily, because it is faster and more convenient for Western Sydney community to travel to SYD than WSI when traffic on M4 and M5 is clear.

Train is not available and buses will take an hour which many may prefer to go to SYD instead.

 

[transpactraveller]

ADL and PER earns 60 Qantas Status Credits on MH and CX more than leaving SYD and MEL.

That seems odd as they would be shorter distances?

 

[Himeno]

That seems odd as they would be shorter distances?

QF gives more points/SC on partner flights operating on routes that they don't compete on.
You earn more on CX flights to HKG from ports that QF doesn't have flights to HKG from.

 

[Aeryn]

ASP is a leisure not a business destination, doubt people will want to fly wsi-adl-asp and arrive hours before they check in to hotel.

Similarly you can fly syd-tsv direct twice daily, so no need for wsi-bne-tsv connection.

Avoiding PER red eye has some merit, but all those wsi-bne-regional qld connections you are proposing would have dubious demand. The bne-mining area demand is FiFOnot so much business or tourists.

 

[Chatswood]

I really hope Qantas will introduce flights leaving Melbourne and Brisbane at 10pm and 11pm for WSI, and also a 6pm departure from Perth for WSI, and 4.30am departure for PER, 5.30am departure for ADL and 5am departure for MEL and BNE. This will allow Sydneysiders to connect with Cathay Pacific and Malaysian Airlines services departing from MEL, BNE, ADL, PER in the morning, arriving in those airports in the evening, further improved connectivity for Turkish Airlines flights from Istanbul via Singapore.

Qantas should also launch 1am and 4am or 5am departure from WSI to AKL, which will allow premium Business travellers to arrive AKL in the morning, avoid overnight stays in Auckland for morning meetings, and properly connect Cathay Pacific CX198 and Fiji Airways FJ410 to Asia and Pacific region.

Some of these ideas are great particularly with the domestic flights. The Perth-WSI could be a goer, there's a 5:15pm PER-BNE flight on VA which gets into Brisbane just before midnight, so a similarly timed flight to WSI by QF could serve some FIFO workers and regional WA passengers, for example I see Karratha/Newman/Paraburdoo arriving at 3-4pm. Similarly other domestic options could work,

However it looks like the rest of it is more rooted in enthusiast than practicality, for various reasons the other routes probably wouldn't work:

• The CX/MH connections from WSI to other Australian ports don't seem sensible when there are already 10pm departures from SYD (CX138, MH140) and morning departures. They also already connect well with a ~2 hour transit time with the departures from their home ports to other regional and long-haul destinations. Going WSI-MEL/BNE-HKG doesn't add anything as the transit times aren't practical.
• TK and QF have no codeshare agreement, nor are they from the same alliance so I don't see why QF would connect to/from the TK flight. TK and SQ are partners however so that's where the transfer to SYD/WSI will come from.
• The only Australia-NZ red eye flights are on Jetstar so I'm not sure how viable an overnight flight would be for business passengers. I suspect the Air NZ WSI flight schedules reflect this as well as they didn't take advantage of not having a curfew.
• The connection in AKL to CX198 seems spurious as how many cash fare customers would be happy to take a detour of 3 hours + 90 minutes transfer + 12 hours to go to HKG?
• And for FJ I would be very surprised if they don't launch their own flight from WSI at some point given equivalent late night departures from other Australian ports.

In general it doesn't look like there are departures and landings between 12am-6am between most curfewless Australian ports, so I'm not sure if there's any pent-up demand that could justify most of those proposed flights.

With the BNE proposed connections - the QLD government actually helpfully created an assessment of the workforce in the resource industry, and unfortunately the population of the interstate FIFO workers appears to be rather insignificant. https://www.qgso.qld.gov.au/issues/12981/bowen-basin-resource-industry-workforce-2024.pdf

Impractical unless you plan to drive to WSI. Trains don't run between midnight and 5am.

No Australian city has a 24 hour service to its airport and yet the curfewless ports operate throughout the night. For example:

• The last train to Brisbane Airport from the city leaves at 9:30pm and the return is at 10pm, and yet it has a bunch of flights leaving at about midnight, with the last flight out being EK at 2am.
• Perth also has no overnight public transport but it has flights departing overnight, including a 2am MH flight.
• Melbourne has flights departing just after midnight and this is covered by the Skybus which doesn't run from 1-4am. The first Skybus doesn't connect too well to early international flights with a 90 minute interval between arrival and SQ248/QZ411 but it's likely a result of demand not being quite there.

Also, even a 10pm last bus from surrounding suburbs will get to the airport at about 11pm - still quite adequate for a 1am departure. Same with the Metro WSA when it opens, there are plenty of connections off the T1 to the Metro till midnight. Once again this airport's catchment area is Greater Western Sydney (population 2.8m) so it would not necessarily serve a resident east of Strathfield.

In short I don't see it being a dealbreaker, if demand is there an operator will step up whether it's Murrays, Flixbus, or Skybus.

 

[moa999]

That seems odd as they would be shorter distances?

Hangover of the simpler fairer changes made years ago .
Whereby flights that weren't on QF/ key partners and were seen as competitive had SF earn reduced.

 

[SYD]

ASP is a leisure not a business destination, doubt people will want to fly wsi-adl-asp and arrive hours before they check in to hotel.

Similarly you can fly syd-tsv direct twice daily, so no need for wsi-bne-tsv connection.

Avoiding PER red eye has some merit, but all those wsi-bne-regional qld connections you are proposing would have dubious demand. The bne-mining area demand is FiFOnot so much business or tourists.

QF have some seriously Big Data backing their choice of routes, timings and capacity.

Many here thought LAS was a joke - but it’s happening.

No doubt, we’ll see some routes that they believe will work. How successful and what follows, only time will tell.

 

[Saab34]

I’m not sure Alliance will operate these? They have just made a whole bunch of pilots redundant, and I’m not sure if they even have a Sydney base currently. The contract with QF ends in 18 months, seems unlikely they will open a Sydney base.

A220 might be better suited?

 

[dajop]

TBH I think more likely domestically to see late night arrivals than late night departures if MEL is a guide.

 

[HS-TQE]

I’m not sure Alliance will operate these? They have just made a whole bunch of pilots redundant, and I’m not sure if they even have a Sydney base currently. The contract with QF ends in 18 months, seems unlikely they will open a Sydney base.

A220 might be better suited?

The initial plan was to establish a WSI base with the Alliance E190s, which I'll assume will go as planned. However, if the Alliance situation with the QF wetleases does occur, QF does have NJS A220s as an alternative Plan B, and I don't see them using Network, so I'd suspect mainline 737s be Plan C.

 

[Harrison_133]

I’m not sure Alliance will operate these? They have just made a whole bunch of pilots redundant, and I’m not sure if they even have a Sydney base currently. The contract with QF ends in 18 months, seems unlikely they will open a Sydney base.

A220 might be better suited?

There were murmurs Alliance would open a 'Sydney basin' base, but given the situation they've got themselves in, it remains to be seen whether that ever eventuates.

 

[Saab34]

There were murmurs Alliance would open a 'Sydney basin' base, but given the situation they've got themselves in, it remains to be seen whether that ever eventuates.

No doubt Alliance would want trade offs in any negotiations to reduce the burden on the overall commercial deal already in place, whatever deal they negotiate you would expect it would somewhat need to benefit Alliance.

Depends how much leverage they have these days, Qantas might be in the position now to say no thanks to a deal and run with the A220s, a luxury they didn’t have 5 years ago.

It’s obviously complex as NJS are in stalled pilot negotiations at the moment. We might see nothing based there initially just operated to and from.

 

[Superbird]

I think domestic flight announcements for WSI will be delayed given the fuel crisis. Qantas just announced they are cutting 5% of flights

 

[HS-TQE]

I think domestic flight announcements for WSI will be delayed given the fuel crisis. Qantas just announced they are cutting 5% of flights

I'd suspect the build up of the QF Group hub (JQ and QFLink) at WSI may slowed down in response to the on-going fuel situation but the opening day may go ahead as planned. The only destinations being MEL and BNE on both JQ and QFLink.

I'd suspect VA is more likely to stay out of WSI for the short term until the start of NS27 at the earliest, mid 2027 at the latest. Despite the WSI and NSW Government subsidies on offer, VA elected to stay out.

I'm guessing VA's timing for their own WSI launch may be in line with the WSI Metro line opening in 2027 as WSI is likely to be just a station for VA, with flights timed for connections in BNE and MEL.

 

[Saab34]

Without needing to open a crew base they could initially just run with twice daily in and out from other bases. Would be good for ground ops to get familiar with some early token flights.

Virgin could do the same, fairly low risk just running a flight in and out, however I’d imagine operating into WSI is part of a larger agreement/package with each major airlines and the airport operator, who obviously wants some scale, and not a couple of random flights.

 

[SYD]

I'd suspect the build up of the QF Group hub (JQ and QFLink) at WSI may slowed down in response to the on-going fuel situation but the opening day may go ahead as planned. The only destinations being MEL and BNE on both JQ and QFLink.

I'd suspect VA is more likely to stay out of WSI for the short term until the start of NS27 at the earliest, mid 2027 at the latest. Despite the WSI and NSW Government subsidies on offer, VA elected to stay out.

QF seem to be rigging their post Easter/DST 2027 schedule at the moment (nothing has gone on Sale (QFd/QFi AFAICS) beyond 27 Mar 2027, even though the 353d booking window is now out to 2 Apr 2027. Perhaps when that's bedded down, we might see/hear what's happening at WSI?

 

[justinbrett]

QF seem to be rigging their post Easter/DST 2027 schedule at the moment (nothing has gone on Sale (QFd/QFi AFAICS) beyond 27 Mar 2027, even though the 353d booking window is now out to 2 Apr 2027. Perhaps when that's bedded down, we might see/hear what's happening at WSI?

That’s the start date of the NS schedule.

Also this schedule should have the new sunrise flights - so a lot to work out.

 

[SYD]

That’s the start date of the NS schedule.

Also this schedule should have the new sunrise flights - so a lot to work out.

Either way, all flights post 27 Mar 2027 are MIA....somethings going on.

 

[justinbrett]

Either way, all flights post 27 Mar 2027 are MIA....somethings going on.

Like I said, new schedule, lots of unknowns = not a surprise.

Probably the team that usually is finishing the new schedule has been busy designing the route changes due to the ME crisis, and now the domestic cuts.

 

[Catweazle]

So, we don't yet know the first date of domestic passenger departures / arrivals?