How credible are "aviation" Journalists generally?

[Melburnian1]

Some on this forum are dismissive or antagonised by anything about aviation 'incidents' that journalists write.

This can be strange, because sometimes journalists are merely reporting the facts of an ATSB or other safety investigation.

One fairly well known journalist, Ben Sandilands, comments about an overseas incident where the TCAS equipment may have malfunctioned:

Apropos Adelaide near hit, read this | Plane Talking

It will be many months before any ATSB report into the QF x 2 near ADL incident above is available.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

Some on this forum are dismissive or antagonised by anything about aviation 'incidents' that journalists write.

This can be strange, because sometimes journalists are merely reporting the facts of an ATSB or other safety investigation.

One fairly well known journalist, Ben Sandilands, comments about an overseas incident where the TCAS equipment may have malfunctioned:

Apropos Adelaide near hit, read this | Plane Talking

It will be many months before any ATSB report into the QF x 2 near ADL incident above is available.

The reason we do is many times the reporting is nothing short of sensationalism and written by people who have no clue about aviation. It's a well established pattern. I also see it working in the industry..

As for Ben Sandilands, I'd hardly call him an authority on aviation. His bias towards Qantas is unbelievable. I take most of his writing with a grain of salt.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

You may mean, nlagalle, to assert that Mr Sandilands (whom I have never met) has a bias 'against', rather than 'towards', Qantas. 'Towards' is ambiguous but implies 'supportive of', the opposite of Mr Sandilands' apparent attitude.

I don't know why he holds such a view, but those I speak with who hold a similar marked anti-Qantas view can sometimes trace it back to something as small or perhaps dated as an interaction with an unpleasant staff member.

Over the years, Mr Sandilands may well have been read by far more Australians than any post on this or similar specialist forums.

To be fair, in the above report, the journalist concerned is passing on details of an aviation safety incident overseas, and he qualifies his comments by reminding us that it was not an Australian airspace occurrence. So to suggest he's 'not an authority on aviation' is not quite as relevant to that particular piece of his, as we can all judge for ourselves if we take the time to find the report and read the facts as stated in it.

Many journalists are generalists: are you suggesting that no journalist who lacks a huge interest in aviation should report on an ATSB media release, for instance? Granted, such a person may not be able to refer readers or viewers to history of similar incidents, but at least they can report on what the media release or other document says with the possibility of an industry expert offering detailed analysis at a later date.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

I don't know why he holds such a view, but those I speak with who hold a similar marked anti-Qantas view can sometimes trace it back to something as small or perhaps dated as an interaction with an unpleasant staff member.

Over the years, Mr Sandilands may well have been read by far more Australians than any post on this or similar specialist forums.

There are far more read aviation journalists out there than Ben. He certainly isn't that respected as you keep posting. Crikey is a reasonable website but it isn't exactly far reaching either. This site also isn't a news site - it's a forum, you cannot compare the two.

Many journalists are generalists: are you suggesting that no journalist who lacks a huge interest in aviation should report on an ATSB media release, for instance? Granted, such a person may not be able to refer readers or viewers to history of similar incidents, but at least they can report on what the media release or other document says with the possibility of an industry expert offering detailed analysis at a later date.

I never said that. They don't cross reference or check with people who do understand aviation and report correctly. Just look at some of the headlines written and the style of writing. It doesn't just happen in aviation stories. It happens in other areas too. Unfortunately today many journalists must report on many different topics in one day. There isn't many specialists left as we have had in the past. This means they lack specialist knowledge (i.e. i had to explain to a journalist exactly what it meant by the loss of separation).

Perhaps you could try writing an aviation story in the style we see in the news today.. There is some help here: The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

Very funny, nlagalle.

You may be a 'printer' or executive in the 'printing industry', or in newspapers or magazines, but maybe you should offer (if you are around at the time, of course) to write such stories given your obvious interest in the topic.

One tactic that newspapers now use if they can afford or if they choose to spend their money that way is to ask outside experts on a topic to write an opinion piece. For instance, in Melbourne, you may see a well known Professor from RMIT write the occasional newspaper article on planning issues. The same goes for transport I assume. It often takes a couple of days for the expert to appear in print as he or she has to look at what was announced and analyse it, which may involve a fair bit of research even if a lot of knowledge is in his or her gray matter.

The decline in specialist journalists is worrying but we have only ourselves to blame if we decline to subscribe to print or online editions of newspapers or magazines. Few if any have worked out how to replace the revenue that once flowed in through the classifieds and the greater amount of display ads in previous years.

'The Australian' has Steve Creedy. 'SMH' and 'The Age' have Matt O'Sullivan, who I don't think has been around for quite as long. 'AFR' has a couple of journalists who write a fair bit on aviation. There are specialist broker analysts such as Matt Crowe in Sydney who are often quoted, but in his case it is usually about profit outlooks that are affected by load factors, economic conditions, fleet upgrades or an elderly fleet and so on.

 

[mannej]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

What's your point? You use a lot of superfluous information to fill space.

FWIW I am surprised that there wasn't a thread yesterday about why D7 237 was over 5 hours late yesterday leaving PER...

 

[markis10]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

'The Australian' has Steve Creedy. 'SMH' and 'The Age' have Matt O'Sullivan, who I don't think has been around for quite as long. 'AFR' has a couple of journalists who write a fair bit on aviation. There are specialist broker analysts such as Matt Crowe in Sydney who are often quoted, but in his case it is usually about profit outlooks that are affected by load factors, economic conditions, fleet upgrades or an elderly fleet and so on.

All of whom have zero professional experience in the Aviation industry AFAIK and are often seen by those who work in the industry as press release recyclers:

Steve Creedy - PPRuNe Forums

I spent some time with both Steve and Matt earlier this year I have to say they are travel writers first and foremost as opposed to being Aviation experts, their job is to take information and make it sell advertising (they are also nice people but that's irrelevant ).

Having also been involved in numerous newsworthy incidents over my former professional aviation career, I have never seen an article written by any journalist that was on the money when it came to the facts, in fact I cannot even recall one that was 50 percent factual. One of the reasons Wikipedia is not held in high esteem as a source of facts by the research community is the fact it allows citations from news articles, think about it!

 

[nlagalle]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

Very funny, nlagalle.

You may be a 'printer' or executive in the 'printing industry', or in newspapers or magazines, but maybe you should offer (if you are around at the time, of course) to write such stories given your obvious interest in the topic.


The decline in specialist journalists is worrying but we have only ourselves to blame if we decline to subscribe to print or online editions of newspapers or magazines. Few if any have worked out how to replace the revenue that once flowed in through the classifieds and the greater amount of display ads in previous years.

I am more than a 'printer' those here that know me know of my involvement in the print media (btw only 20 years worth in the editorial space), so please don't try an patronize me.

I have offered advice in the past but my craft is not journalism so I don't profess to have the skills to write an article (often with short deadlines). My point to you was simply that Ben Sandilands is not widely read and certainly isn't a respected authority. If you want that, go read a proper aviation magazine.

 

[yohy?!]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

might be best to agree to disagree on this - personally I enjoy Plane Talking and don't see any more bias there than I do on here either for or against QF.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

might be best to agree to disagree on this - personally I enjoy Plane Talking and don't see any more bias there than I do on here either for or against QF.

This isn't a news site. Crikey claims to be one.. Big difference. Ben has never written a balanced article that I've seen.

 

[yohy?!]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

This isn't a news site. Crikey claims to be one.. Big difference. Ben has never written a balanced article that I've seen.

reread the beginning of my post again

might be best to agree to disagree on this

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: TCAS event over the bight today with two QF A330s

nlagalle, I wasn't trying to patronise you - I simply pointed out some of the occupations that could be in the 'print' industry.

yohy?!, a good suggestion.

markis10, I do not know Steve Creedy, but over the years he has written some quite detailed articles on defence aviation matters, as one example. It went beyond recycling of media releases.

 

[777]

Say what you like about Sandilands but he is an actual aviation reporter who has been around the block and worked for most major newspapers covering aviation over many years. He has a lot of opinions and a few biases but he's not pro or anti qantas or VA, he's basically old school. He doesn't like what financial engineering and pursuit of the bottom line is doing to aviation and he believes - rightly or wrongly - that the standards of the regulators and policy makers are dropping.

His problem is not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, it's that he began talking about it in the 60s and that he is not always comfortable with how things are changing. If you read him in that context a lot of what he has to say can be taken or left but that's the position he writes from. He isn't someone who is going to mistake 737 for an a380.

 

[pauly7]

I think Ben S has flashes of brilliance and insight but unfortunately 90% of the time has an acidic and vicious angle against the QF stable of brands which now just makes me doubt/ignore pretty much anything he writes. It's boring hearing the same one sided slant all the time.

I know AusBT are regarded as fairly low brow around here but at least they seem to have a little objectivity, though lack a lot of detail and have annoying personal interjections into the copy which is a bit irritating.

 

[Simo]

IMHO,

There is some very good Aviation Journalists and then there are some average ones and some below average ones.

but this is the same as every profession.

 

[VHOEJ]

Steve Creedy and Geoffery Thomas are the only two I pay attention to - they know thier stuff.

 

[harvyk]

This can be strange, because sometimes journalists are merely reporting the facts of an ATSB or other safety investigation.

Disagree with you 100% on that. If people wanted just the facts they would log onto the ATSB site and start reading the reports.

A journalists job is pretty simple, write something which will sell advertising space and in the case of paywall / physical newspapers makes people want to part with their hard earned money.

Provided what is written is unlikely to get the publication sued / irrevocably tarnish the publications image, the truth from qualified experts always gives way to the "eyewitness" account of the pax in 21D over any actual factual knowledge.

The reason is that 21D is the every-man which everyone can identify with. Plus the person in 21D is more than happy for their 15 minutes and thus will be easily found at the arrival airport only too happy to tell the world what "actually" happened on the flight.

The advantage with an actual "aviation" journalist is that they are unlikely to place a picture of an A380 when the aircraft in question in a dash 8. They are as likely to be as knowledgeable on airline and aircraft operations as some of the (non airline) members here, and they probably won't say anything too stupid without verifying it first. But of course like everyone, they bring their own biases in.

 

[moa999]

Agree that Ben is anti-QF, well at least anti running the business to make money recognising some relatively harsh realities of geographic positioning, high home cost base and poor government support. He seems to be stuck in a parallel universe where QF is govt owned and has no budget restrictions.

And he is definitely opinionated. However his dogged pursuit of safety related stories (eg PelAir) is impressive. His recent stories of failures of auto collision avoidance systems, which the regulators seem to be relying upon is scary to say the least.

 

[straitman]

Some on this forum are dismissive or antagonised by anything about aviation 'incidents' that journalists write.

This can be strange, because sometimes journalists are merely reporting the facts of an ATSB or other safety investigation.

One fairly well known journalist, Ben Sandilands, comments about an overseas incident where the TCAS equipment may have malfunctioned:

Apropos Adelaide near hit, read this | Plane Talking

It will be many months before any ATSB report into the QF x 2 near ADL incident above is available.

Disagree with you 100% on that. If people wanted just the facts they would log onto the ATSB site and start reading the reports.

A journalists job is pretty simple, write something which will sell advertising space and in the case of paywall / physical newspapers makes people want to part with their hard earned money.

Provided what is written is unlikely to get the publication sued / irrevocably tarnish the publications image, the truth from qualified experts always gives way to the "eyewitness" account of the pax in 21D over any actual factual knowledge.

The reason is that 21D is the every-man which everyone can identify with. Plus the person in 21D is more than happy for their 15 minutes and thus will be easily found at the arrival airport only too happy to tell the world what "actually" happened on the flight.

The advantage with an actual "aviation" journalist is that they are unlikely to place a picture of an A380 when the aircraft in question in a dash 8. They are as likely to be as knowledgeable on airline and aircraft operations as some of the (non airline) members here, and they probably won't say anything too stupid without verifying it first. But of course like everyone, they bring their own biases in.

I think you both have summed it up reasonably well with a few minor add-ons needed.

Melburnian1,
The article you quoted and Ben S for that matter are basically correct but the article certainly and Ben frequently, only give a small % of the whole story. For the article to have any real meaning it needs to also discuss lateral separation a few lines on how the TCAS is meant to work and what the crews actually did. Not sure who/where/how they came to the conclusion that TCAS is 'fool proof' as it is only one item in the safety chain.

harvyk,
You are correct IMHO. Newspaper articles are there to sell papers first and deliver news second. That often involves 'enhancing' parts of stories and leaving out parts that don't add to that enhancement. As you said, to get the real facts you need to read the ATSB reports. The issue with that is that many would not understand the significance of much in those reports.