Frequent flyer points on a Government (PATS) funded flight

[casanovawa]

Incentive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think i know what an incentive is, what is the point of this post???

 

[777]

I think i know what an incentive is, what is the point of this post???

The point of the post is that the most efficient way to discourage a particular type of behaviour is not a complex management structure in at a department level to ensure that people aren't rorting their travel requirements or add even more bureaucrats to monitor the travel of other bureaucrats it is remove or minimise the incentives to do so.

This board is full of people clearly showing irrational (in a strict economic sense) behaviour in order to earn FF points and/or SCs. How often do we see posts explaining that someone manages to push their employer's BFOD travel policy to fly a particular carrier or book into a particular fare bucket? It's par for the course around here. On their own dime that's fine and most of us would be hypocritical to argue that it should never happen.

But we're talking about taxpayer's money here. Times that process of finding an excuse to pay for the extra $40 fare or take a sightly unnecessary trip times the entire public service -- the largest employer and certainly the largest travel contracts in the country and you are talking about a fortune of taxpayers money.

It's economics 101. Removing the incentive (or creating a disincentive/ cost) is the most efficient way to discourage negative behaviour in almost all circumstances. You can hire an entire army of pubic service travel police/ auditors and they will both cost more and achieve less than the removal of the incentive.

 

[markis10]

The point of the post is that the most efficient way to discourage a particular type of behaviour is not a complex management structure in at a department level to ensure that people aren't rorting their travel requirements or add even more bureaucrats to monitor the travel of other bureaucrats it is remove or minimise the incentives to do so.

This board is full of people clearly showing irrational (in a strict economic sense) behaviour in order to earn FF points and/or SCs. How often do we see posts explaining that someone manages to push their employer's BFOD travel policy to fly a particular carrier or book into a particular fare bucket? It's par for the course around here. On their own dime that's fine and most of us would be hypocritical to argue that it should never happen.

But we're talking about taxpayer's money here. Times that process of finding an excuse to pay for the extra $40 fare or take a sightly unnecessary trip times the entire public service -- the largest employer and certainly the largest travel contracts in the country and you are talking about a fortune of taxpayers money.

It's economics 101. Removing the incentive (or creating a disincentive/ cost) is the most efficient way to discourage negative behaviour in almost all circumstances. You can hire an entire army of pubic service travel police/ auditors and they will both cost more and achieve less than the removal of the incentive.

Executive summary - stick works better than carrot!

 

[777]

Executive summary - stick works better than carrot!

I'd put it this way: take away the carrot and you don't need the sticks.

 

[casanovawa]

And what a master motivator you obviously are... I always find staff go the extra mile with no carrots of any kind...

Next i suppose they can take away all the govt cars and issue bicycles... Actually, that would impact the high and mighties so that probably won't happen...

Once you get on the track of scrimping every cent there is no end of dumb ideas you can come up with though...

As i said before, with a mandated travel agent for govt bookings, an expectation of a best flight of day policy within a small range unless there is a reason to justify a more expensive ticket (maybe connections or timing works better, but personally screw me getting up for a 6am flight if there is one that leaves at a slightly more civilised time for a few bucks extra (even though i will be wracked with guilt on behalf of Joe Public all trip)) and then a list of approvals as long as your arm (line manager, probably director, executive director, Director General, then for foreign trips i think the Minister needs to give approval as well) i think if i was trying to travel to Canberra via Jo'burg and Santiago, someone might sniff something??? (Notice in there i didn't say any new levels of expensive scrutiny, its just the overkill that even routine travel applications have to go through)

I still don't think its a cost cutting initiative anyway even after all of that... I'm sure if i chose to fly PER-SYD-CBR rather than PER-CBR i could still do it anyway...

 

[777]

with a mandated travel agent for govt bookings, an expectation of a best flight of day policy within a small range unless there is a reason to justify a more expensive ticket (maybe connections or timing works better, but personally screw me getting up for a 6am flight if there is one that leaves at a slightly more civilised time for a few bucks extra (even though i will be wracked with guilt on behalf of Joe Public all trip)) and then a list of approvals as long as your arm (line manager, probably director, executive director, Director General, then for foreign trips i think the Minister needs to give approval as well) i think if i was trying to travel to Canberra via Jo'burg and Santiago, someone might sniff something??? (Notice in there i didn't say any new levels of expensive scrutiny, its just the overkill that even routine travel applications have to go through)

...

I'm sure if i chose to fly PER-SYD-CBR rather than PER-CBR i could still do it anyway...

Thanks. You have proved my point.

 

[significance]

For me, status points and resulting privileges are a bigger incentive than points ever were. I travel a lot more often for work than I do for leisure, so being able to get a good seat and sit in the lounge before my flight is worth more to me than accumulating points (which according to our previous policy, I could only spend on work flights in any case). So if it only means $10 or $20 difference in fare, I will look for flights on the airline with which I have status than the airline with which I don't, despite the BFOD policy. Not accumulating points is an annoyance only because it means I don't have points to spend on J upgrades for long-haul flights, so I need to schedule in an extra day of recovery time (at my employer's expense) for each long trip.

 

[casanovawa]

Thanks. You have proved my point.

I think the only thing i proved was it was a stupid idea, but if you think it validated your opinion and it makes you feel happy, more power to you...

 

[casanovawa]

For me, status points and resulting privileges are a bigger incentive than points ever were. I travel a lot more often for work than I do for leisure, so being able to get a good seat and sit in the lounge before my flight is worth more to me than accumulating points (which according to our previous policy, I could only spend on work flights in any case). So if it only means $10 or $20 difference in fare, I will look for flights on the airline with which I have status than the airline with which I don't, despite the BFOD policy. Not accumulating points is an annoyance only because it means I don't have points to spend on J upgrades for long-haul flights, so I need to schedule in an extra day of recovery time (at my employer's expense) for each long trip.

I hope you feel appropriately guilty of what a parasite you are significance... Now just take what ever the cheapest sh!te the machine/TA spits out, even if it means getting up at 3.30am or something, and stop leaching off the saintly Joe Public... I guess apart from the fact that the $10-20 might actually be coming out of yours or mine own taxes and not costing Joe Public diddley squat... Maybe 777 even wants to save us from ourselves in his pursuit of virtuousness???

 

[Danger]

The thread on pollies' FF perks ending has been closed so, at the risk off continuing this thread off topic . . .

In a Herald Sun article on 26 June 2009, it was noted that "politicians have hoarded more than 17 million frequent flyer points in just six months . . ." Seventeen million? Wow. That's huuuuuge.

No, it's not.

There are 225 members of federal parliament (excluding the PM). Seventeen million FF points equates to an average of just 75k each, enough for a return J trip east coast to west coast.

An article in the Daily Telegraph the same day stated "the country's 225 MPs and senators could save taxpayers millions of dollars if they used them". Millions of dollars. Wow. That's terrible.

No, it's not. In fact, it's blatantely incorrect.

Continuing the above example, if each politician was to pay for that return east coast to west coast instead of using their (average) 75k FF points, it would save the Commonwealth a meagre $810k (225 x $3600 (approximate cost of return J fare)).

Take it another way. Assume a round the world (in Economy, no less) costs, say, $3k inclusive of taxes which can be had with Qantas for 140k FF points. That 17 million now buys 121 round the world tickets - or just $363k if paid for (121 x 3000).

One more. Say a round the world ticket in J is $8k (which is at the high end). That 17 million points buys 60 of them (17 million divide by 280k (FF points)). Sixty multiply by 8000 is just $480k.

None of these figures are remotely close to "millions of dollars".

FF points were removed as a benefit purely because of the negative media publicity.

 

[casanovawa]

Stop proving 777s point more that we are all bludgers and rorters Danger, and don't try to bring facts into your excuses, that just earns more derision...

Now just admit your wrong like we all should...

 

[777]

Stop proving 777s point more that we are all bludgers and rorters Danger, and don't try to bring facts into your excuses, that just earns more derision...

My point was never that you're all bludgers and rorters. I have already said in this thread that i travel on government contract myself from time to time. It was that the most effective way to cut down on excess travel costs is to remove the incentive. Given you've provided a long explanation of why and how other mechanisms -- despite their absurdly expensive complexity -- can easily be subverted the point stands.

 

[casanovawa]

Subverted the system??? Maybe my boss isn't such a obsessive, penny pinching w@nker that if i can get a slightly better timed flight going via MEL or SYD to CBR he's not coughping himself over $10-20???

What i was saying is that points didn't necessarily have a huge impact on how i chose to fly rather than a whole bunch of other issues, and that the points actually could have been seen as a minute, positive incentive that actually cost the government nothing.... I, and i imagine many PSs, now can't be stuffed having a system where work points and private points are all mixed in the same personnel account and the cough that could result from it, so by then choosing to forgo collecting points the government hasn't saved any money now or in the future, we'll probably still fly the routes we were before and its just annoyed some of its workforce over a non-issue..

 

[777]

the points actually could have been seen as a minute, positive incentive that actually cost the government nothing....

They cost the government nothing if (and only if) no-one's choice of when, where or how much to spend on flights is influenced by them.

We, as AFF'ers all know that no one ever goes out of their way, takes on additional expense, or follows a more circuitous route in order to earn FF points -- particularly if they're not personally paying for it -- so obviously it's a non issue.

 

[casanovawa]

I'm sure the people who obsess over the points and gaming to get them is pretty small... I know a few people around the traps who have flown quite a bit for Govt and privately and they know next to none of the tricks of buying miles, status runs, etc, etc that is on here... We would often be less than like 1% of the people out there flying, probably a bit of a fraction of that even, especially in the PS, there would be practically no one in govt flying multiple J and F flights around the world to conferences etc, etc and scrutiny is high of costs... So yes, i personally think a non issue that as Danger has alluded to was more pushed by silly news stories than any actual cost recovery or savings... There are so many other places in govt (and private sector) that money is spent and continues to be even as travel budgets are continually being cut...

If they actually took advantage of some of the tips and tricks that people on boards like this use, they might even be able to save themselves some money and get better outcomes...

 

[The Rok]

I wonder how many people, particularly those on this forum, who do not work for the PS but in private industry and are allowed to claim FF points actively choose their flights/routings/timings/carriers etc based on the SC or FF earn? Not really sure its fair to hammer the PS guys about it. If big business see it as a good incentive to retain good staff and reward those who spend time away from home & family then really the PS should probably look at this closer.

 

[Beta4Me]

I wonder how many people, particularly those on this forum, who do not work for the PS but in private industry and are allowed to claim FF points actively choose their flights/routings/timings/carriers etc based on the SC or FF earn? Not really sure its fair to hammer the PS guys about it. If big business see it as a good incentive to retain good staff and reward those who spend time away from home & family then really the PS should probably look at this closer.

But the difference is the government often does SFA or, when they do do something, they often screw it up. And, we all have to pay for them to run. With the private sector we can choose whether we buy from them--if you don't like their travel policy for staff, don't buy their goods/services.

 

[casanovawa]

Beta, can't really be bothered extending this into another argument about the purity and superiority of every hero in the private sector and all PSs are bad, but where abouts do you work?? Coz on reading that i tempted to say you know SFA about the PS...

 

[777]

I wonder how many people, particularly those on this forum, who do not work for the PS but in private industry and are allowed to claim FF points actively choose their flights/routings/timings/carriers etc based on the SC or FF earn? Not really sure its fair to hammer the PS guys about it. If big business see it as a good incentive to retain good staff and reward those who spend time away from home & family then really the PS should probably look at this closer.

I don't think it's a criticism of the PS guys. I think the exact same applies in the corporate sector. In this case an entity with a large travel contract has decided that abolishing FF point earns is an effective way of keeping its travel costs down. I think that's true -- others apparently disagree but i find the logic unconvincing. If other companies come to the same view then I have no problem with that.

However, they may find that it does come back to bite them in other ways: making it less likely that someone would take a job with them, making it harder to retain talent, or actually discouraging useful and necessary travel. That's then a decision for each employer (or whoever is paying for the travel) to make. I'm not here to tell them what they should decide but i refuse to accept there's no logic to it and that it doesn't save them money. The logic is obvious and even if 1 or 2 percent of employees are booking unnecessary flights on a contract that size the saving is substantial.

 

[casanovawa]

Ok, we'll agree to disagree 777, but i think you are not taking account of several other factors that impact the PS such as the bogeyman thing about PSs getting some outrageous largesse that the papers like to routinely throw around on slow news days and the philosophical wrestling some people somewhere must be doing that PS/pollies might be deriving a slight benefit from their routine work from tax payer's dollars... That type of scrutiny is something that no private business gets subjected to....

As well as the fact that Joe Public is on a hair trigger to get their knickers in a knot about all this largess THEY personally are paying for, when as a WA State public service i don't think your paying 1 cent for me...