Fog!

[MatF]

After a couple of years of somewhat fog-related-delay free travel, I can feel it in my bones that this winter is going to be a nightmare!

This week I went to Darwin for a 2-day conference. Flying WGA-SYD-DRW and return.

My original bookings had me:

Monday
WGA-SYD on QF2220, depart 06:30, arrive 07:30
SYD-DRW on QF842, depart 10:45, arrive 15:00

Got an SMS Sunday night to let me know that QF2220 had been cancelled. Turns out the last flight SYD-WGA on Sunday night had been unable to land in Wagga due to fog, and had turned around and gone back to Sydney, hence no aircraft in Wagga for QF2220.

So I was rebooked on:

WGA-SYD on QF2222, depart 10:00, arrive 11:00
SYD-CNS on QF926, depart 13:25, arrive 16:35
CNS-DRW on QF1874, depart 19:10, arrive 21:15

Arrived at WGA airport at 09:25 Monday morning, at least grateful for a bit of a sleep in. It was very foggy

The aircraft operating the first flight from SYD that morning (which I was then going to be getting on to go back) was delayed, and finally landed when the fog started to lift at 12:15, after 4 missed approaches. The final landing attempt was successful before it was going to be diverted to Canberra.

So, got to SYD at about 13:45, missing my flight to Cairns. Moved to:

SYD-DRW on QF846, depart 19:40, arrive 23:45

So pretty much a 9 hour delay getting there.


Coming back yesterday, booked on:

DRW-SYD on QF829, depart 01:45, arrive 06:25
SYD-WGA on QF2221, depart 08:35, arrive 09:35

Took off from Darwin on time, settled back into my J seat (thank you whoever wrote our company policy that >4hrs = Business Class).

At about 05:00 we were informed that SYD airport was closed due to fog, and we were diverting to Brisbane. Landed at Brisbane, refuelled, sat there for a while (not long), and took off again.

We were put into a holding pattern somewhere between Brisbane and Sydney (I was a bit like a zombie by then, so I'm not sure where), and finally landed in SYD at 09:15, missing my connection again. Eventually got home at about 13:00 on QF2225 (about a 3.5hr delay getting home).

So what do you guys do in winter? Try not to fly in the early mornings or late afternoon/evenings?


Cheers,
Mat.

 

[serfty]

... So what do you guys do in winter? Try not to fly in the early mornings or late afternoon/evenings? ...

I endeavour to fly late afternoon / early evening to maximise the benefits of lounge access ... cosideration of atmosperic fog has not come into it (although cerebral fog may ).

 

[docjames]

So what do you guys do in winter? Try not to fly in the early mornings or late afternoon/evenings?


Cheers,
Mat.

Not live in Wagga or Syd??

Evening can often be just as bad with delays rolling through the day - i've lost count of the times our BNE-MEL and vv have delayed due to "late inbound aircraft".

My approach is dependant on how important the travel is:
- critical meeting / event - travel day before
- holiday / meeting can be shifted / no worry if late - travel that day and risk it.

 

[harvyk]

Not live in Wagga or Syd??

Evening can often be just as bad with delays rolling through the day - i've lost count of the times our BNE-MEL and vv have delayed due to "late inbound aircraft".

My approach is dependant on how important the travel is:
- critical meeting / event - travel day before
- holiday / meeting can be shifted / no worry if late - travel that day and risk it.

I don't know how well this works for other cities, but out of CBR, it's strongly recommended that if you have to be somewhere in the morning, and there is a risk of fog, use the earlist flight possible, as the plane would have most likely over nighted at the airport, prior to fog decending.

Of course this wouldn't help on DRW-SYD on QF829, depart 01:45, arrive 06:2.

 

[Bundy Bear]

I endeavour to fly late afternoon / early evening to maximise the benefits of lounge access ... cosideration of atmosperic fog has not come into it (although cerebral fog may ).

Haha on the different type of fog,

Was shocked to see the low cloud and fog in ORD last week, landed about 20 seconds after the plane flew out of the cloud layer, I guess fog is rare that's why we don't have airports properly set up to handle it.

 

[harvyk]

Haha on the different type of fog,

Was shocked to see the low cloud and fog in ORD last week, landed about 20 seconds after the plane flew out of the cloud layer, I guess fog is rare that's why we don't have airports properly set up to handle it.

It's not rare in CBR... We get foggy days frequently in winter...

 

[kpc]

My only experience with fog was 3 years back...after a 24 hour + flight back from Europe to Sydney, we diverted to Mel 15 minutes before landing in Syd. Thankfully, it was the one and only time I was in F (SQ!), but my dreams of a nice hot shower and breakfast in the F SQ lounge in Mel were shattered when we were directed to a remote bay at Mel to wait out the fog:evil: Even though the total delay was only 3 hours, and I was in F, it was almost unbearable sitting, waiting on the tarmac at Mel...:-|

 

[drron]

Touch wood i have not had a problem with fog but twice out of DPO mrsdrron has been delayed.The problem is what they call seamist coming in at night so the last flight of the day doesn't get in so no plane available for the early flight out.

 

[RB]

We were lucky flying into Syd on Wed morning on VA2 from LA. Less than an hour out we were advised about Syd fog & may have to go to Melb. Told we were to be one of first to try to land. Actually landed couple of minutes after 6am. Saw 6 flights had been diverted to Melb. Flight attendant noted we would have been 7 or so hrs if diverted to Melb-staff were out of hrs.

 

[Worldtraveller8888]

Got an SMS Sunday night to let me know that QF2220 had been cancelled. Turns out the last flight SYD-WGA on Sunday night had been unable to land in Wagga due to fog, and had turned around and gone back to Sydney, hence no aircraft in Wagga for QF2220.

When the Rex Cadet Pilot school gets up and running, Wagga Wagga will be getting an ILS. While it won't help in real fog, at least it will give aircraft more of a chance of getting in and hopefully less chance of a situation like yours arising again!

WT

 

[docjames]

LOL - It's foggy in BNE this morning...

but no major delays....

An ILS will help WGA. But is no certainty if it's a real pea-souper.

 

[munitalP]

...

So what do you guys do in winter? Try not to fly in the early mornings or late afternoon/evenings?

I personally try to travel the night before if the weather forecast is looking like there will be fog at either of my destinations. generally BOM is not too bad at their predictions and often will be on the mark a few days out. This increases travel cost by an extra night in a hotel & meals and often an extra days rental on a car, but the cost of missing meetings especially pre tender meetings far outweighs the day before travel costs.

A good explanation of how fog is caused is available here


munitalP

 

[Groundfeeder]

but out of CBR, it's strongly recommended that if you have to be somewhere in the morning, and there is a risk of fog, use the earlist flight possible, as the plane would have most likely over nighted at the airport, prior to fog decending.

In my old CBR days it was catch the 0530 Ansett flight to Sydney or watch the fog --- for up to 3 days!!
Nothing like getting to Sydney at 0615 and wait for the office to open at 0900 - yawn.

 

[MatF]

I was going to ask about ILS at Wagga - I had heard it's on the way (I think in the airport development plan). I was wondering how much help it would be, considering SYD was still closed on Thurs morning.

Currently booked on the 06:30 flight to Sydney tomorrow morning (then on to BNE on QF510 at 08:35) .... not liking my chances if the fog from this morning is anything to go by!! Fingers crossed.

 

[Worldtraveller8888]

I was going to ask about ILS at Wagga - I had heard it's on the way (I think in the airport development plan). I was wondering how much help it would be, considering SYD was still closed on Thurs morning.

It will only be a Category 1 ILS (which is the same as all others in Australia except Melbourne). Unfortunatley aircraft can't conduct an autoland in fog on a Category 1 ILS, and the weather will still need to be better than 800m visibility and the base of the cloud at least 200ft about the ground.

So, it won't help in REAL fog, but will be an improvement on the current approaches.

WT

 

[markis10]

We might get a cat IIIc one day - you wont see Sydney ever change from Cat 1 though.

 

[MatF]

Well, to my amazement, we took off from WGA on time today.

I woke up this morning to heavy fog at home (I couldn't even see the railing on our deck), but it was patchy, and relatively clear at the airport by the time I got there at 06:00.

I almost dawdled getting ready, because I thought there was no way in the world we'd be on time. Lesson learnt!

It will only be a Category 1 ILS (which is the same as all others in Australia except Melbourne). Unfortunatley aircraft can't conduct an autoland in fog on a Category 1 ILS, and the weather will still need to be better than 800m visibility and the base of the cloud at least 200ft about the ground.

So, it won't help in REAL fog, but will be an improvement on the current approaches.

WT

Interesting! Thanks.

 

[markis10]

Take Off visual range required is a lot less than landing visual range, which explains why the first flight often gets off when inbound aircraft fail to get visual, departing aircraft also have an easy task locating the runway since they are on it!

 

[drron]

Take Off visual range required is a lot less than landing visual range, which explains why the first flight often gets off when inbound aircraft fail to get visual, departing aircraft also have an easy task locating the runway since they are on it!

Just as well i had put my coffee down.

 

[markis10]

Maybe I should have said departing aircraft have a lot easier task locating the runway since they should be on it, there has been the odd mis-identification of runways when confused with taxiways in the past, despite the best efforts of navigational aids and lighting!