Solar Panels

[NM]

Your battery cost may not be 20c/kWh. It may be higher for smaller batteries. Could be 30c/kWh before adding charging costs.

Suggest get a quote.
Are you single phase?

Quote is coming. Single phase with a maximum inverter size of 5kW per phase (set by the energy distributor). With battery, can have up to 10kW total inverter, but 5kW maximum to the grid.

I am seriously considering a DC-coupled battery that can take DC directly from panels (replacing existing inverter) and adding around 5 or 6 kW additional panels, which should overcome my limited current excess generation issue on some days. Current panels (6.6kW) are all north facing, but any new panels will likely be on 2 MPPTs facing east-west, which will primarily extend the generation time, starting earlier and ending later, with a moderate increase in peak generation.

My main goal is not to find the cheapest installation cost. I will pay more for dealing with a known entity that I trust rather than try to find the cheapest battery cost. The software control capability for scheduling and directing the energy within my system and ability to connect to my home automation system is very important and is a capability for which I am happy to pay extra. Without a good control capability, I will not be able to achieve the primary desired outcome of zero grid consumption during peak tariff periods.

 

[NM]

Past quotes - particularly when you factor installation - made the numbers marginal at best, so I had previously said no for now. However, with 30% off thanks to albo looks like it will bring it under breakeven (depending on how much prices inflate when the subsidy comes on line) and the WA state govt credit could seemingly push it into genuinely money saving territory.

I am not planning on receiving the full 30% rebate off battery prices that were quoted before the rebate was announced. I expect that both the battery manufactures and the installation companies will adjust their pricing to ensure they get some of the rebate benefits, especially as demand will have suddenly increased significantly so they will be looking to similarly increase their margins (supply-demand model).

 

[Quickstatus]

16450

Less charging/discharging inverter losses of 10%
Also assume that the charge/discharge cycle is 90%. Ie discharge to no lower to 10% state of charge. Some say no lower than 20% state of charge.

Then factor in battery degradation. I use 15% in the 10th year and assume degradation is a straight line. So average degradation (in other words battery capacity that is not available ) is 15/2 = 7.5%

So 16450 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.925 =12,325 usable and warranted kWh.

Divide by 3650 = 3.37 kWh/day rather than 4.5

 

[DC3]

... I will pay more for dealing with a known entity that I trust …

A great point that many over-look.

 

[NM]

Another reason for considering battery now is my expectation that with increasing popularity and demand for batteries, there will be a greater drive from the energy providers to direct consumers to VPP contracts. And it may be not too long in the future where we may not have options except to participate in a VPP for any new installations. The energy distributors could make VPP participation a requirement of any new battery-enabled properties, just as they are trying to drive customers towards Demand Tariffs as they look to recover the revenue loss they experience from the update of solar+battery customers.

Of course I have no way to know if my fears/predictions will actually come to reality, but if it does, then I do not want to be o the wrong side of the fence. I would rather get into the battery market now than wait a year or two only to find that the options are less attractive due to changing supplier models.

I have already found that most energy retailers in my area "force" their customers onto demand tariffs and try to blame it on the distributor (pole and lines supplier), saying they are the ones who have forced the change and that it applies to everyone in their area. But for now, at least one retailer in my area does not use demand tariff on single tariff plans. but who knows how much longer that will remain. And who knows what the next trick will be for the retailers and distributors to recover their revenue losses due to solar+battery update. But I do believe with certainty that the plans and contracts will morph over time as the energy companies deal with reducing revenue from just selling power.

I can see a combination of changes that may include some of these:

• Steadily increasing daily supply charges
• Steadily increasing (narrowing) off-peak and shoulder rates for TOD tariffs
• Forced demand tariff plans with evolving rules/calculations
• Forced participation in VPP for new battery installations

I hope I am wrong, but that is the way I see things progressing over the next 5-10 years or so.

 

[Quickstatus]

And it may be not too long in the future where we may not have options except to participate in a VPP for any new installations.

The 30% carrot require the installation to be VPP capable though currently there is no requirement to participate

 

[NM]

The 30% carrot require the installation to be VPP capable though currently there is no requirement to participate

so guess where the future is likely headed ....

Hence I see this as an incentive to get in now before the requirement status is "enhanced".

 

[Quickstatus]

I don't think it will be a problem. Likely there will be a price delta for the kWh exported as a carrot. The SA VPP operated by Tesla has been quite profitable.

 

[NM]

I don't think it will be a problem. Likely there will be a price delta for the kWh exported as a carrot. The SA VPP operated by Tesla has been quite profitable.

I hope you are correct, but my gut is telling me I'm dreaming.

 

[SeatBackForward]

Just been through the entire solar panel installation thing myself over the last few months, and few of the things I learnt/did:

• strings vs micro inverters - I went with the SolarEdge micro inverter system
• That we needed to upgrade from single phase to 3 phase, requiring a new switchboard = $$$$
• You can't use solar in the event of a blackout (unless you have a fancy inverter or a battery)
• we put in 30 (13kw) panels and a 10kw inverter
• split the panels so 50% are north facing and then rest a split east/west to spread out the generation period.
• had the north facing panels positioned in such a way that a second row of panels can be added in future along with more east and west facing panels (we could effectively end up with double)
• moved the electric hot water tank onto a catch power system to use excess generation into the hot water, but did mean the nighttime control load is redundant now
• couldn't give a $#$# about feed in , because with pool pumps etc we can consume it all.
• will consider a battery with a built in inverter as pert of the panel expansion.

I'm hoping theres a way to use the nighttime controlled load to top up the battery when the solar doesn't charge it up, then use the battery in the 6-9pm peak usage when the sun's not shining.

 

[Quickstatus]

I'm hoping theres a way to use the nighttime controlled load to top up

My understanding is not because controlled loads are a separate circuit and need to be directly connected to the grid. Whereas a battery sits behind a gateway.

Also charging a battery from solar then top up at night just uses up the maximum kWhthroughput that is warrantable.

 

[SeatBackForward]

My understanding is not because controlled loads are a separate circuit and need to be directly connected to the grid. Whereas a battery sits behind a gateway.

Could this not just involve another smart meter onto the circuit?

Also charging a battery from solar then top up at night just uses up the maximum kWhthroughput that is warrantable.

Surely this is just a technical problem? as in, there must be a solution for it.

 

[Quickstatus]

Surely this is just a technical problem?

It's not a technical problem. Just a warranty issue. You use up the max throughout kWh.

Could this not just involve another smart meter onto the circuit?

Controlled loads are restricted in the type of loads it can connect to. I think you would not want to fiddle with the gateway - the gateway is essentially the computer than manages the flow of power through the system.

 

[moa999]

And in any event these days ToU rates are often cheaper at rate than controlled load.
I wouldnt be surprised to see CL gradually withdrawn as well.

 

[SeatBackForward]

And in any event these days ToU rates are often cheaper at rate than controlled load.
I wouldnt be surprised to see CL gradually withdrawn as well.

Not all the case on my plan, CL.is about 15c, then my other rate is about 35c. if I move to ToU, even the night rate would start at about 24c.

That's why i really want to take advantage of the CL rate and if a battery could be topped up/ charged with that, i could then use it during evening peak.

 

[Quickstatus]

take advantage of the CL rate

When does your CL turn on/off?

 

[RB]

Another reason for considering battery now is my expectation that with increasing popularity and demand for batteries, there will be a greater drive from the energy providers to direct consumers to VPP contracts. And it may be not too long in the future where we may not have options except to participate in a VPP for any new installations. The energy distributors could make VPP participation a requirement of any new battery-enabled properties, just as they are trying to drive customers towards Demand Tariffs as they look to recover the revenue loss they experience from the update of solar+battery customers.

Of course I have no way to know if my fears/predictions will actually come to reality, but if it does, then I do not want to be o the wrong side of the fence. I would rather get into the battery market now than wait a year or two only to find that the options are less attractive due to changing supplier models.

I have already found that most energy retailers in my area "force" their customers onto demand tariffs and try to blame it on the distributor (pole and lines supplier), saying they are the ones who have forced the change and that it applies to everyone in their area. But for now, at least one retailer in my area does not use demand tariff on single tariff plans. but who knows how much longer that will remain. And who knows what the next trick will be for the retailers and distributors to recover their revenue losses due to solar+battery update. But I do believe with certainty that the plans and contracts will morph over time as the energy companies deal with reducing revenue from just selling power.

I can see a combination of changes that may include some of these:

• Steadily increasing daily supply charges
• Steadily increasing (narrowing) off-peak and shoulder rates for TOD tariffs
• Forced demand tariff plans with evolving rules/calculations
• Forced participation in VPP for new battery installations

I hope I am wrong, but that is the way I see things progressing over the next 5-10 years or so.

At the time we last moved (2018) in regional NSW in Essential Energy area there was a ruling that Time of Use could not be forced onto you- I was fortunate that I was aware of it. I am not sure if it still applies. Some of the daily supply charges I read in this thread are way more attractive than the options I have available to suit our use

 

[TheRealTMA]

At the time we last moved (2018) in regional NSW in Essential Energy area there was a ruling that Time of Use could not be forced onto you- I was fortunate that I was aware of it. I am not sure if it still applies. Some of the daily supply charges I read in this thread are way more attractive than the options I have available to suit our use

We were told we web forced to move to a smart meter and they came and found the board was on fibro, put a sticker on it about asbestos and ran away screaming. Still pondering but seems the smart meters allow companies to rip off consumers with demand pricing?.

 

[Quickstatus]

demand pricing

Some retailers have Demand Tariff on top of TOU.

Basically they look at the highest single 30 minute consumption (kW) during the demand tariff period in a month multiply by number of days in month and the demand tariff price

So if in June your highest peak 30min was 10kW: 10kW x 30 x price = demand charge.

 

[SeatBackForward]

When does your CL turn on/off?

When it used to be connected to the hot water, ot would turn on about 11pm and run until about 6am.

Actually now that I think about it. This controlled load usage was showing up on our solar app until we disconnected the hot water.