ACCC action re cancelled Qantas flights

[Mr H]

The thing is there are solutions right away. How do I know? I can open up WebJet and find a solution in 10 seconds when I encounter a cancelled flight.

You are searching for a solution for one passenger on one date, paying a revenue fare. I imagine it’s a whole lot harder to find a solution for a whole plane load of passengers, especially when repeated over multiple dates and where Qantas is trying to leverage industry discounted fares, and even more so when every airline is experiencing turmoil.

 

[Gremlin]

You are searching for a solution for one passenger on one date, paying a revenue fare. I imagine it’s a whole lot harder to find a solution for a whole plane load of passengers, especially when repeated over multiple dates and where Qantas is trying to leverage industry discounted fares, and even more so when every airline is experiencing turmoil.

I’m sure that’s true. But you know what might make that job even harder? Continuing to sell seats on those flights to even more customers, even though you already know you’re not going to be operating them…

 

[Gremlin]

Sorry, I meant “bundle of rights”…

 

[Captain Halliday]

Funny conincidence…

There’s a kid up the road from me with a little stall set up outside his property.

He’s selling a bundle of rights for just $3.

 

[Quickstatus]

He’s selling a bundle of rights for just $3.

Can get better quality up my area for $2

 

[Mr H]

I’m sure that’s true. But you know what might make that job even harder? Continuing to sell seats on those flights to even more customers, even though you already know you’re not going to be operating them…

That's true. But it is not unique to Qantas. For example, Oasis Overland is still selling places on a tour of Arabia in January that they have cancelled and refunded me for. And sometimes airlines sell seats on planes that are already scheduled to be equipment swapped.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

One key data point QF hasn’t shared was how long it took them to find alternate flights for impacted passengers on average. Their press release said they cancelled weeks or months out to give them time to find an alternative. Does that mean it took them weeks or months to find the alternative?

You are searching for a solution for one passenger on one date, paying a revenue fare. I imagine it’s a whole lot harder to find a solution for a whole plane load of passengers, especially when repeated over multiple dates and where Qantas is trying to leverage industry discounted fares, and even more so when every airline is experiencing turmoil.

all I’m saying is the seats are there especially if you aren’t concerned about booking the cheapest industry discount fare. If airlines were compelled to rebook passengers in a prompt manner on any route that gets them there the quickest, passengers wouldn’t have to wait days or weeks to get a response back from QF on the new flight.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

AFR is now reporting on newly uncovered internal QF documents which have discussed the damaged in the company’s reputation:

The material, marked “prepared for internal discussion”, shows the proportion of consumers who would consider flying Qantas domestically has fallen so low that it is only two percentage points above that of its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary, and 19 points below that of Virgin.

If these figures are to be believed it would seem that Qantas has a ways to go in rebuilding customer trust and all this gaslighting of the ACCC likely isn’t doing them any favours.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Gremlin]

That's true. But it is not unique to Qantas. For example, Oasis Overland is still selling places on a tour of Arabia in January that they have cancelled and refunded me for. And sometimes airlines sell seats on planes that are already scheduled to be equipment swapped.

Oasis Overland is not an Australian company. I fail to see how the actions of a foreign business, which is not regulated by the ACCC nor operates under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, has any relevance as to whether Qantas has an obligation to comply with Australian laws. Please enlighten me.

 

[RooFlyer]

AFR is now reporting on newly uncovered internal QF documents which have discussed the damaged in the company’s reputation:

If these figures are to be believed it would seem that Qantas has a ways to go in rebuilding customer trust and all this gaslighting of the ACCC likely isn’t doing them any favours.

-RooFlyer88

Thanks for posting that. Given that its an internal Qantas document, you'd have to say that its utterly damning and must get the Board's attention. And if it doesn't finally put the decision to claw back AJ's pending bonus into 'yes', then I guess they will be happy to see the orange line keep following the glideslope down; just a matter of time when it finally impacts the ground.

The final para:

“Travellers aren’t dumb, by and large they know air travel is a commodity and when there is a mismatch between what they’re paying for and what they receive, they’ll switch,” he added. “Customers don’t care who the CEO is, they care about whether their flight arrives on time, if their luggage arrives with it, and they care about the price they’re paying.”

And yet there are still legions of loyal Qantas fliers who put the lie to that.

 

[Seat0B]

Automatic rebooking can be just as hard for the passenger if they don’t like what’s been rebooked… still have to wait for hours on the phone to change it.

OMG yes, this! I’m dealing with it right now with so far three changes to a domestic connecting leg to international. The transit time just keeps getting shorter and shorter transferring stress and risk to me, plus reducing F Lounge time and also involuntary downgrade from J to Y between CBR and SYD. And the last time that happened it took 8 months of fighting to get ORC!

Edit to clarify it is to Sydney!

 

[XWu]

The original news item states 2 main claims by ACCC:
1. “The ACCC claims that Qantas kept selling tickets for the flights that were scheduled to depart between May and July 2022 for an average of more than two weeks after the cancellation of the flights — and in some cases, up to 47 days.”
2.”The competition watchdog also alleges Qantas failed to notify existing ticketholders their flights had been cancelled for an average of 18 days, and up to 48 days, for more than 10,000 flights set to take off between May and July 2022.”

Frankly the bag of rights defence only apply for Claim 2 and ACCC would always have to work hard to prove this case. BTW the biggest impact of Omicron variants upon air travel was in early Dec 2021 to March 2022, so how it can affect flight 6 months later is just a red herring, and I am not sure it was specifically raised as a reason by the QF defence AFAIK other than under the overalL umbrella COVID-19 reason.

But if the ACCC can get enough evidence to prove Claim 1, and keeping in mind whether QF had intentionally did so knowing the scheduled flights were not happening is actually immaterial, then they can get to sufficient level of proof to cross the threshold.

Of course, if that prove includes that elusive correspondence that management knew the scheduled flights were not happening or impossible to fulfill, and yet they either did nothing to stop ongoing sale of tickets to these services, or worse, tell sales department to keep selling, then this will actually help elevate both claim 1 and 2 in terms of impact upon the ticket holders To the bundle of rights (not pax until they are on a service)

we can argue to death about claim 2, but it was always the weaker of the 2, subject to the court interpretation of QF’s T & Cs. Some may argue that QF should stop fighting Claim 2 as the defence does more damage as it meant the QF ticket holders have no better rights to any LCCs like their very own JQ. But I will submit the court of opinion here that for the majority public, their memory is still fairly short and not follow through their legal arguments as much as we do in the forum.

obviously their internal legal team and management feels that if they lost Claim 2 the splash on the daily rag and ongoing references for years to come would have a worse impact on QF’s reputation

 

[MARTINE]

AFR is now reporting on newly uncovered internal QF documents which have discussed the damaged in the company’s reputation:

If these figures are to be believed it would seem that Qantas has a ways to go in rebuilding customer trust and all this gaslighting of the ACCC likely isn’t doing them any favours.

-RooFlyer88

There must be some seriously disgruntled employees for this to get out….

 

[drron]

Actually i feel more damage will be done to QF if they win this case. There are enough out there who are sure their bundle of rights is more important than QFs. A fair few could well make the switch as they know buying a QF bundle of rights is just a lottery.
And fancy saying QF sells a bundle of rights to the Competition Commission. May well make the ACCC work harder on the case.

 

[OZDUCK]

There are a number of reports online regarding the response of ACCC chairwoman Gina Cass-Gottlieb to the 'defence' issued by Qantas. She says that the points raised by Qantas had no relationship to the charges laid.

"But Ms Cass-Gottlieb said on Thursday the watchdog’s case did “not involve an alleged breach in relation to the actual decision about cancellation or whether Qantas had the contractual capacity to do so in the print that maybe some of you raise in relation to your ticket”.

Rather, its allegations were about “the representations that Qantas made to customers in the sale of the tickets and its conduct after it had cancelled the flights in view of those representations”"

This link worked for me.

Qantas’ defence misses the point, see you in court: ACCC chief

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Actually i feel more damage will be done to QF if they win this case. There are enough out there who are sure their bundle of rights is more important than QFs.

if QF wins the case with that argument it’ll be bad news for them because I can book whatever flight I want with Qantas and show up to whatever flight I want. After all, I didn’t book a specific flight, rather just a promise to travel at some point and presumably at the time that ultimately works best for me

 

[Mr H]

if QF wins the case with that argument it’ll be bad news for them because I can book whatever flight I want with Qantas and show up to whatever flight I want. After all, I didn’t book a specific flight, rather just a promise to travel at some point and presumably at the time that ultimately works best for me

If you can find a way to make that consistent with the terms and conditions you sign up for then go for it.

I just can't help feeling, as I read this thread, that people are generally unhappy with Qantas and looking for specific things that they can pin on them. If Qantas has missed the point of the ACCC case in their defence, have the complainants all understood the case? Their complaints seem to shift around a lot - c.f. the discussion about Omicron.

Most punters have short memories and will just go with the best fare of the day, maybe with the exception of the very worst LCCs.

 

[mannej]

As a data point, QF cancelled a number of PER-SYD flights for 6/10 at about T-24 when the notification was received. Even though my flight was booked by a Corp TA, the process was pretty painless and ended up on a flight about 90 minutes earlier, all locked in about an hour or so after the initial cancellation.

Lost on on the 332 down to the 738, but better arrival time and choice or flight options. Seemed fairly well-drilled from my end.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I just can't help feeling, as I read this thread, that people are generally unhappy with Qantas and looking for specific things that they can pin on them. If Qantas has missed the point of the ACCC case in their defence, have the complainants all understood the case? Their complaints seem to shift around a lot - c.f. the discussion about Omicron.

I would argue that any argument made about COVID is a moot point. It went away in 2021 and at worst is as bad as the flu. And if Qantas is gonna state with a straight face that common colds and influenza (which anyone can catch at anytime) is reason for them cancelling 8000 flights, then I've got a bridge to sell them on the moon.

Most punters have short memories and will just go with the best fare of the day, maybe with the exception of the very worst LCCs.

Correct. Although I will point out that rarely does QF have the best fare when compared to the likes of Virgin or even luxury carriers like JétStar.

 

[downgraded]

will just go with the best fare of the day

Exactly - so next Friday the same (red e-deal) bundle of rights from Melbourne to Sydney costs between $155 (05:45) and $553 (13:00). QFs current defence seems to be that that is indeed the case as departure time isn't one of the things you are buying so how can you have missed the flight time you had never actually purchased anyway?. So buy the cheapest set of rights and turn up when you want to fly.