Complaint to Brent Godfrey

[Commuter]

Using that "logic" , why won't cityrail take responsibility for my missing the start of a movie at a cinema if the train is late or if the traffic is really bad and taxi gets to the airport too late for a flight that the taxi company will not purchase a new airline ticket? Why should an airline be expected to take responsibility for hand holding once that which they have been paid to do has been completed?

And why wouldn't the government be responsible for my missed flight due to an accident causing congestion on the road as a result of poor road and driver qualifications and monitoring?

I treat economy class airline travel as any other travel. People complain about airlines what people never dream of complaining if it happened on a bus (schedule change on a bus would normally not be profusely complained about, if notified well in advance).

I never understood the strange expectation that people seem to get when they fly. There is nothing special about flying. It is merely a mode of transport as far as I'm concerned.

 

[mummy]

JOHNK: I chose Pacific Blue because when I was looking for a flight in December they announced they were starting a non-stop flight to Bali from Brisbane. All the other seem to stop en-route. We're travelling with 2 small children so this carrier looked like the best option and the price seemed good. There isn't an alternative now and they would be a lot more expensive.

Thanks for the suggestion.

DAVE NOBLE: I don't think that you can compare buses to airlines unless you're talking about Greyhound for example which travel long distances. I would be equally unhappy if a bus company had taken the full fare 6 months before I travelled and then changed their schedule one month afterwards, causing me to lose most of a day's holiday. It's whether people are prepared to accept that it's OK to change a service radically, for which you've paid in full and are yet to receive. I'm not prepared to accept that it's something we have to put up with. As I said in an earlier message, I've travelled with other airlines internationally and paid for tickets well in advance and this hasn't happened before. By the sounds of it, I've been lucky, or is it as someone else said, that Australian airlines are particularly bad. If it's the latter, then why are they so bad?

I haven't sent my complaint to Brett Godfrey now, as I appreciate now that it will be a waste of time. I've had another suggestion as to what to do and also I found on the internet that the there is a review of Australian Consumer Law so I will look into taking my complaint in that direction. I know that my flight problems cannot be changed now. I asked DJ to it back in January (albeit as a tongue in cheek request but that was the remedy I wanted).

I'm not a traveller who travels for work. Perhaps some people have their flights paid by their companies or their clients. Perhaps, if there is a delay, the time wasted is covered by a client or a company. I'm the other sort of traveller who's going for leisure reasons. Perhaps airlines should run charter flights for people like me instead. Perhaps people like me should only be able to book flights through an agent who organises a seat on a charter flight. Food for thought maybe.

Anyway, I'm not happy and I will go as far as I can until someone says go away, there's nothing you can do.

 

[harvyk]

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Not always to possible to put all sectors on the one ticket. How do you get a QF flight SYD-BKK and a PG flight BKK-CNX on the one ticket?

If I book a flight with an airline what sort of expectation should I have for the actual arrival time. Is getting there yesterday good enough? How about tomorrow? Or even next week?

To answer your questions (although Dave Noble has already done so to a degree) to book multiple carriers on the one ticket (especially ones with no formal alliance) you usually need a TA to do it for you rather than over the internet. Furthermore I've had QF change my flights around to suit my AirNZ flights even though they where booked under a discounted fare (aka no changes permitted fares) because they where all under the one ticket.

The second part is follow the airlines recommended transit times for the specific airport. If you make your bookings to allow for the recommended transit times then it's far more likely the airline will help you out if something goes wrong, even if it's not their fault. If you don't allow enough time (and I've had to go on earlier flights before as the one I had originally wanted was going to cut 5 minutes into the recommended transit time the airport) and sometime goes wrong you really are on your own.

Also yes, sometimes getting there yesterday is appropriate, I've done that before, caught a CBR - MEL flight the night before, o'nighted in MEL as my flight the next morning was an OMG o'clock flight and I wouldn't have made it in time if I left CBR in the morning.

 

[JohnK]

To answer your questions (although Dave Noble has already done so to a degree) to book multiple carriers on the one ticket (especially ones with no formal alliance) you usually need a TA to do it for you rather than over the internet. Furthermore I've had QF change my flights around to suit my AirNZ flights even though they where booked under a discounted fare (aka no changes permitted fares) because they where all under the one ticket.

Sorry but I do not think the question has been answered. I should be able to make a booking with more than one mode of transport and be reasonably confident that I will get to the destination within a couple of hours of the scheduled arrival time.

I have not checked but I do not think it will be possible for any travel agent to book a Qantas flight and a Bangkok Airways flight on the one ticket. It does not have to be Bangkok Airways. It can be the now defunct coughet Air, One2Go, a train, a cruise or whatever else you want.

The second part is follow the airlines recommended transit times for the specific airport. If you make your bookings to allow for the recommended transit times then it's far more likely the airline will help you out if something goes wrong, even if it's not their fault. If you don't allow enough time (and I've had to go on earlier flights before as the one I had originally wanted was going to cut 5 minutes into the recommended transit time the airport) and sometime goes wrong you really are on your own.

So if I allow 1 day on my QF-PG example is this good enough on 2 different tickets? What if Qantas cancels a flight and puts me on a flight the next day which means I will now miss the next days PG flight. I cannot believe that people find it acceptable to be delayed by up to 2 days and not make a fuss about it. And as we discussed getting a full refund 1 week prior to departure is simply not good enough.

Also yes, sometimes getting there yesterday is appropriate, I've done that before, caught a CBR - MEL flight the night before, o'nighted in MEL as my flight the next morning was an OMG o'clock flight and I wouldn't have made it in time if I left CBR in the morning.

Not if the airline offers yesterday as the new arrival time for the original cancelled flight. Just like yesterday is unnaceptable then a flight 15 hours earlier is also unacceptable.

I think we allow airlines to get away with way too much. People should not have to change plans just because an airline cannot commit to a schedule. The airline has taken the money so they should honour the commitment to get someone to the destination as close as possible to the estimated arrival time and if that means putting them on another carrier at the airlines expense then so be it. Perhaps if this happened more often airlines will be less likely to make changes to the schedule as often as they do now.

 

[NM]

Not always to possible to put all sectors on the one ticket. How do you get a QF flight SYD-BKK and a PG flight BKK-CNX on the one ticket?

I have not checked but I do not think it will be possible for any travel agent to book a Qantas flight and a Bangkok Airways flight on the one ticket. It does not have to be Bangkok Airways. It can be the now defunct coughet Air, One2Go, a train, a cruise or whatever else you want.

Qantas will happily ticket SYD-BKK on QF and BKK-CNX on PG. The fare rules for the Qantas fare VLBB specifically state the following flight applicability:

BETWEEN AUSTRALIA AND THAILAND
   FOR TRAVEL ON/BEFORE 31JUL 09
     THE PROVISIONS BELOW APPLY ONLY AS FOLLOWS -
     TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AUSTRALIA.
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         ANY QF FLIGHT OPERATED BY JQ.
   AND
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         ANY QF FLIGHT
         ANY BA FLIGHT
         ANY CX FLIGHT OPERATED BY CX
         ANY SQ FLIGHT OPERATED BY SQ
         ANY PG FLIGHT OPERATED BY PG
         ANY TG FLIGHT OPERATED BY TG
         ANY MI FLIGHT OPERATED BY MI
         ANY JQ FLIGHT.
          NOTE -
           PERMITTED CARRIERS/ROUTING AS PER ROUTE MAP.
   FOR TRAVEL ON/AFTER 01AUG 09
     THE PROVISIONS BELOW APPLY ONLY AS FOLLOWS -
     TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN AUSTRALIA.
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         ANY QF FLIGHT OPERATED BY JQ.
   AND
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         ANY QF FLIGHT
         ANY BA FLIGHT
         ANY CX FLIGHT OPERATED BY CX
         ANY SQ FLIGHT OPERATED BY SQ
         ANY PG FLIGHT OPERATED BY PG
         ANY TG FLIGHT OPERATED BY TG
         ANY MI FLIGHT OPERATED BY MI
         ANY JQ FLIGHT
         ANY 3K FLIGHT.
          NOTE -
           PERMITTED CARRIERS/ROUTING AS PER ROUTE MAP.
   FOR TRAVEL ON/BEFORE 31JUL 09
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         QF FLIGHTS 5000 THROUGH 5999.
   AND
   THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
       ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
         ANY QF FLIGHT
         ANY BA FLIGHT
         ANY CX FLIGHT OPERATED BY CX
         ANY SQ FLIGHT OPERATED BY SQ
         ANY PG FLIGHT OPERATED BY PG
         ANY TG FLIGHT OPERATED BY TG
         ANY MI FLIGHT OPERATED BY MI
         ANY JQ FLIGHT.
          NOTE -
           PERMITTED CARRIERS/ROUTING AS PER ROUTE MAP.

So I see no reason that any travel agent or even Qantas telephone sales would not be able to issue that on a single ticket.

 

[JohnK]

So I see no reason that any travel agent or even Qantas telephone sales would not be able to issue that on a single ticket.

I have obviously picked a bad example. That ticket appears to be V class and what price am I likely to pay to get the level of protection required by the airline?

Say I booked SYD-BKK on QF today for travel 26 Dec arriving into BKK just before midnight and in October I decide I want to detour to Chiang Mai and book BKK-CNX on PG for travel 27 Dec.

Do I have an unrealistic expectation to be able to book 2 flights on separate tickets with a connection time of 1 day and get to my final destination without having to go through hoops with unwanted stress levels?

 

[NM]

I have obviously picked a bad example. That ticket appears to be V class and what price am I likely to pay to get the level of protection required by the airline?

ExpertFlyer Fare Information shows it as A$1157+++ for the return fare. I have no idea how that compares with other options. MH have a fare for A$1072+++, obviously via KUL.

If you want the airline to protect you then you need to pay for that "service"

Say I booked SYD-BKK on QF today for travel 26 Dec arriving into BKK just before midnight and in October I decide I want to detour to Chiang Mai and book BKK-CNX on PG for travel 27 Dec.

If you want the flexibility to add sectors to your itinerary, then purchase a fare type that included the flexibility to make changes. If you choose not to purchase a ticket that includes the flexibility you require, then you are accepting the risk yourself.

Do I have an unrealistic expectation to be able to book 2 flights on separate tickets with a connection time of 1 day and get to my final destination without having to go through hoops with unwanted stress levels?

I would be happy to accept my own risk with a 24 hour connection. However, accepting the risk means that if I am delayed to the point of missing my connection that I am willing to pay the spot price for a replacement flight. I would likely also protect that risk with a suitable travel insurance policy.

And I believe it is possible for a single protected itinerary to be covered on two tickets. I once had a BNE-SIN-KUL-SIN-BNE itinerary that was purchased as a QF fare but issued as two tickets - an e-ticket BNE-SIN-BNE on Qantas and a paper ticket SIN-KUL-SIN on MH. Both e-ticket and paper ticket were 081 Qantas ticket stock and it was a BNE-KUL fare valid for travel on QF and MH (and other airlines including SQ). It was issued as two tickets since MH did not accept e-tickets at the time so that portion had to be a paper ticket. The itinerary was booked by a TA through Sabre and issued through Qantas. While it may have been slightly cheaper to purchase the two components independently, with a tight connection at SIN (about 90 mins from memory) the risk would have been unacceptable. Bags were checked through from BNE to KUL and from KUL to BNE, but boarding passes for the connecting flights had to be collected from the transfer desks at SIN in each direction.

 

[harvyk]

I have obviously picked a bad example. That ticket appears to be V class and what price am I likely to pay to get the level of protection required by the airline?

Say I booked SYD-BKK on QF today for travel 26 Dec arriving into BKK just before midnight and in October I decide I want to detour to Chiang Mai and book BKK-CNX on PG for travel 27 Dec.

Do I have an unrealistic expectation to be able to book 2 flights on separate tickets with a connection time of 1 day and get to my final destination without having to go through hoops with unwanted stress levels?

See the example you've just given is the exact reason a good TA is worth their weight in gold. You simply tell them what you want your travel plans to be and they make it happen, they know how to work the systems to get you the result you want.

As I said before, yes you can book online, and for simple there and back flights it is certainlly a viable option, but as soon as you want to do something a little left field this is where a (good) TA will shine.

Now back to the original problem, if an airline cancels a flight then there is not really to much you can do. You seem to think that airlines have unlimited resources, but they only have a finite number of planes \ employees and other resources which have to be managed. For all we know pac blue where given a directive from an airport which meant that the flight is no longer possible with the resources they have available. Did you check to see if it was only that one flight on that one day that has been cancelled, or has the specific flight now only runs on specific days (or not at all?)

Also finally on price for protection by airline - if a ticket has been issued, regardless of price, the airlines will do what they can to ensure you get to your destination. I've had QF red-e-deals (you know, the fares which can not normally be changed) changed because there where earlier flights available as I had more time transiting than I needed, or changed to later flights because I ended up missing the connection. The key thing was they where on the same ticket as my int flights, that's all there is too it.

 

[Dave Noble]

I have obviously picked a bad example. That ticket appears to be V class and what price am I likely to pay to get the level of protection required by the airline?

Say I booked SYD-BKK on QF today for travel 26 Dec arriving into BKK just before midnight and in October I decide I want to detour to Chiang Mai and book BKK-CNX on PG for travel 27 Dec.

Do I have an unrealistic expectation to be able to book 2 flights on separate tickets with a connection time of 1 day and get to my final destination without having to go through hoops with unwanted stress levels?

If you make a completely unrelated booking, then it is at your risk, not the airlines. If you arn't prepared to pay the fare for a through journey, why on earth should the airline assist

If planning to purchase additional tickets, then it is up to you to ensure that enough time is left in case of eventualities such as delays or rescheduling

Book it as a single ticketed itinerary , then all the protections are in place

 

[NM]

If you make a completely unrelated booking, then it is at your risk, not the airlines. If you arn't prepared to pay the fare for a through journey, why on earth should the airline assist

If planning to purchase additional tickets, then it is up to you to ensure that enough time is left in case of eventualities such as delays or rescheduling

I seem to remember a recent conversation with someone regarding travelling KUL-BKK and BKK-LHR on two different tickets and the risks of a same-day connection in BKK. The traveller chose (wisely I believe) to stay in BKK overnight to minimise the risk.

 

[Dave Noble]

I seem to remember a recent conversation with someone regarding travelling KUL-BKK and BKK-LHR on two different tickets and the risks of a same-day connection in BKK. The traveller chose (wisely I believe) to stay in BKK overnight to minimise the risk.

Ah yes. I do remember that. I seem to recall that I^Hthe traveller decided that to book the overnight stay was the safest and then , if all went well with the journey on LH from KUL to BKK, could pop up to the BA ticket desk and get on the LHR flight that night if there was availability if desired

As it happened, the traveller decided to stay in Bangkok for the night anyway since was able to catch up with someone that evening who was also visiting Bangkok

Much safer method than to book that evening's flight and risk missing it

Dave